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haute ecole rider
It would seem that mALX has trouble following instructions! Somehow that doesn't surprise me. wink.gif

Cropping would be so much easier and simpler for you to do than the ol' cloning and stamping. It comes with quite the learning curve to make it look good (believe me, I know!).

Here's how I would crop it.

There, he's much more classy!
TheOtherRick
QUOTE(haute ecole rider @ May 1 2011, 03:29 PM) *

It would seem that mALX has trouble following instructions! Somehow that doesn't surprise me. wink.gif

Cropping would be so much easier and simpler for you to do than the ol' cloning and stamping. It comes with quite the learning curve to make it look good (believe me, I know!).

Here's how I would crop it.

There, he's much more classy!

I was actually going to do a crop demonstration the same way, but I wasn't sure how much of the photo she wanted to keep. You are right, that crop job works well.
mALX
Osama Bin Laden bites the dust? His cave collapsed under American MOAB? Stay tuned for confirmation of the news, I guess !!
Thomas Kaira
Yup, the President is just now confirming that Osama Bin Laden is dead.

And now the U.S. can flex its muscles and scream "We win! Hahahaha!" in a burly, gravelly voice akin to Sylvester Stallone or Mickey Roark. Now, if only we could pull out of Iraq, but that is a mess we have to clean up ourselves now. Hopefully this will at least mean a cut in the national defense deficit; I mean, come on, we are spending more on our military in the U.S. than the entire rest of the world combined spends on theirs! Shameful!

I don't know if it's exactly a good thing that he's dead, but to deny that would be shamefully un-American, so... I'm stuck. Well he was the leader of the terror group that killed thousands of other people, so he's not exactly innocent, so I have to say yes, after further thought. It is good that he is dead, for he has now received his comeuppance for all the lives he has taken from this world. smile.gif

Still, that's one less excuse for future political figures to have about why the world is in such a terrible state right now.

Anyways, that tornado outbreak we saw over the last few days was apparently the second deadliest in U.S. history, with about 339 confirmed deaths as a result of the outbreak. They don't call that part of the world "Tornado Alley" for nothing. It just goes to show that everything is bigger in America. Bigger cars, bigger people... and of course, bigger storms.
TheOtherRick
Shot in the head and we have his body! FINALLY!!
ureniashtram

Whoah. After, what, several years? WHoah.
Grits
Happy first day of school, haute ecole rider! I’m sure my vision of new glue sticks and freshly sharpened pencils is not at all relevant, but you have my wishes for a great beginning!

Kiln, I’m glad you made it through the storms OK. I just rode up I95 again, and a lot of folks are still bulldozing debris into piles from the tornadoes that hit here a couple of weeks ago. I predict that a lot of the piles will become vine-covered reminders of 2011 in years to come.

mALX, I love the photo of your son, in all of its iterations! Mom-to-mom, my first thought was oh look at your beautiful boy!! But of course, don’t tell him that, lol! Instead may I offer how handsome and mature he looks. I am a person who will squint at the background of someone’s new baby picture and think, hey, I have that book. So I enjoyed the beautiful setting, too! laugh.gif

Given the exact same software, I would still never have come up with haute’s elegantly cropped version. It goes to show it’s not so much the brush as the hand that holds it.

It seems that my anticipation of a few peaceful days always launches another adventure. This time it was a couple of days at the beach, with one hour’s notice. Much fodder for stories was gathered, and my feet received a brutal sunburn. Apologies to whoever is at the beach today. It seems we brought most of the sand home with us.
mALX
QUOTE(TheOtherRick @ May 1 2011, 11:55 PM) *

Shot in the head and we have his body! FINALLY!!



Not any more, the sea does. I wonder if they entwined him in pork before the tossing?
Lady Syl
QUOTE(Thomas Kaira @ May 1 2011, 10:52 PM) *

Yup, the President is just now confirming that Osama Bin Laden is dead.

And now the U.S. can flex its muscles and scream "We win! Hahahaha!" in a burly, gravelly voice akin to Sylvester Stallone or Mickey Roark. Now, if only we could pull out of Iraq, but that is a mess we have to clean up ourselves now. Hopefully this will at least mean a cut in the national defense deficit; I mean, come on, we are spending more on our military in the U.S. than the entire rest of the world combined spends on theirs! Shameful!



Yes, and while our children suffer poor education and people go without decent healthcare... Proud to be an American? Not lately, to be honest. We think too highly of ourselves, sometimes.... I love this country, but at the same time I am ashamed of us.... kvright.gif

And though I am glad Bin Laden will no longer be terrorizing this world, I cannot bring myself to rejoice. Death is never a reason to rejoice (and yes, this coming from the mouth of Dementia's duchess... tongue.gif )
King Coin
QUOTE(Lady Syl @ May 2 2011, 08:23 AM) *

Yes, and while our children suffer poor education and people go without decent healthcare... Proud to be an American? Not lately, to be honest. We think too highly of ourselves, sometimes.... I love this country, but at the same time I am ashamed of us.... kvright.gif

And though I am glad Bin Laden will no longer be terrorizing this world, I cannot bring myself to rejoice. Death is never a reason to rejoice (and yes, this coming from the mouth of Dementia's duchess... tongue.gif )


I feel the same way on both counts.
mALX
I couldn't rejoice till my older son is home safe from Afghanistan anyway - but agree it is not a matter of rejoicing, but being thankful that the one behind the attacks of 911 has finally faced justice for his actions. (if he is actually dead, I do remember seeing news reports of "We Got Him!" over Sadaam too, and we all know how false they were till the final day of the trial. They say right now they are awaiting DNA still.

The point is, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are still active and out there; acting of their own orders and misnaming their actions as Jihad, when in truth it is nothing but extremist terrorism.

For the lives lost in 911, or the others like Daniel Pearl who were murdered for these groups to make their propaganda vids - I am glad the man is gone (if it is true), but you are right - I don't feel like rejoicing, but honoring those who died by his hand.
saqin
Glad to hear everyone here got out of the storm okay. I've never seen a tornado in real life and from what I've seen on tv I don't want to either.

I don't know how I should react to Bin Ladens death since it will probably cause anger amongst his followers whom will want revenge, but hopefully that at least elevates the chance that things will calm down.

As for me, I'm fine. Had two tests last week which I think went quite well and has another two this week. I also ran about 7 km in the forest this weekend(competition), and I managed to find all of the controls within one and a half hour, which is good for me considering the distance.
Lady Syl
QUOTE(mALX @ May 2 2011, 10:01 AM) *

I couldn't rejoice till my older son is home safe from Afghanistan anyway - but agree it is not a matter of rejoicing, but being thankful that the one behind the attacks of 911 has finally faced justice for his actions. (if he is actually dead, I do remember seeing news reports of "We Got Him!" over Sadaam too, and we all know how false they were till the final day of the trial. They say right now they are awaiting DNA still.

The point is, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda are still active and out there; acting of their own orders and misnaming their actions as Jihad, when in truth it is nothing but extremist terrorism.

For the lives lost in 911, or the others like Daniel Pearl who were murdered for these groups to make their propaganda vids - I am glad the man is gone (if it is true), but you are right - I don't feel like rejoicing, but honoring those who died in his name on this day.


I agree, and that is basically what I mean... I've seen some really vicious facebook responses to the news, and though I understand the desire for revenge on that man, I think this news needs to be received with humility, reverence for those lost, and also some scepticism--until it is proven he is really dead, I am not 100% convinced...
mALX
The DNA has (purportedly) been confirmed as Bin Laden's. In a miraculous feat of speed (compared to other high profile cases where we waited for DNA results for 4-7 days) they matched the sample Overnight to Bin Laden's UN-Named sister who died in an American hospital in Boston, Mass. a year ago from brain cancer.

I find the immediate dumping of the body at sea to be an odd move, as well as no fingerprints being taken (only a face matching, when it is known he used numerous doubles).

I'm not from Missouri, but do like some proof before I believe something fully, lol.
Lady Syl
QUOTE(mALX @ May 2 2011, 10:59 AM) *

The DNA has (purportedly) been confirmed as Bin Laden's. In a miraculous feat of speed (compared to other high profile cases where we waited for DNA results for 4-7 days) they matched the sample Overnight to Bin Laden's UN-Named sister who died in an American hospital in Boston, Mass. a year ago from brain cancer.

I find the immediate dumping of the body at sea to be an odd move, as well as no fingerprints being taken (only a face matching, when it is known he used numerous doubles).

I'm not from Missouri, but do like some proof before I believe something fully, lol.


yes, it does seem sort of...mysterious. The way they handled it and released it...I still have my doubts....
haute ecole rider
I'd like to know who handled the DNA testing?

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I understand enough about the chain of evidence to have serious doubts about this one. Let's hope that it's really bin Laden that's dead, and that the major driving force behind al Qaeda has been removed.

I'm not glad he's dead (I would prefer he be brought back for trial in front of US Muslims), and I don't think his death means the end of our terrorism problems. No, our terrorism problems go back waaay too far to be so easily resolved by the death of one guy.

*BEGIN SOAPBOX* And while I want our soldiers home, I also recognize that we have a commitment to the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to help them preserve the independence they so richly deserve. Afghanistan is now a hotbed of warlords and is now no better off than it was under the Taliban (and may yet fall back under those miserable SOB's). Iraq is so unstable that it's hard to keep its balance on its own. We need to invest in those places so that true democracy and not repressive theocracy can take root and grow. If we can reduce our dependence on Israel as our sole ally in the Middle East, it would improve our national security here at home. Otherwise, if we abandon these people, it would make the sacrifices our soldiers and their families have made, both there and here at home, yet another exercise in futility and impotence. *END SOAPBOX*

Not trying to stir up controversy, only trying to express my feelings on this sore subject. I hope everyone takes it in the spirit it was intended. I respect your opinion and ask only that you respect mine.
Lady Syl
QUOTE(haute ecole rider @ May 2 2011, 11:52 AM) *

I'd like to know who handled the DNA testing?

I'm no conspiracy theorist, but I understand enough about the chain of evidence to have serious doubts about this one. Let's hope that it's really bin Laden that's dead, and that the major driving force behind al Qaeda has been removed.

I'm not glad he's dead (I would prefer he be brought back for trial in front of US Muslims), and I don't think his death means the end of our terrorism problems. No, our terrorism problems go back waaay too far to be so easily resolved by the death of one guy.

*BEGIN SOAPBOX* And while I want our soldiers home, I also recognize that we have a commitment to the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to help them preserve the independence they so richly deserve. Afghanistan is now a hotbed of warlords and is now no better off than it was under the Taliban (and may yet fall back under those miserable SOB's). Iraq is so unstable that it's hard to keep its balance on its own. We need to invest in those places so that true democracy and not repressive theocracy can take root and grow. If we can reduce our dependence on Israel as our sole ally in the Middle East, it would improve our national security here at home. Otherwise, if we abandon these people, it would make the sacrifices our soldiers and their families have made, both there and here at home, yet another exercise in futility and impotence. *END SOAPBOX*

Not trying to stir up controversy, only trying to express my feelings on this sore subject. I hope everyone takes it in the spirit it was intended. I respect your opinion and ask only that you respect mine.


I respect your opinion and I also agree! I'm not in the least bit one-sided as far as these things go.

(also, hope you don't mind I stole your soapbox.... tongue.gif )

*BEGIN SOAPBOX* I want our soldiers home and safe, and I think we need to take care of our country as well as help others. But I also know that part of doing that is looking out after the good of other countries, and in order to protect ourselves we need to protect them, help them, and do what we can to work together for the good of all people. I am against the war itself, but I am totally in support of our troops and the good that they have done in those countries. I have friends who are Muslim and living in the war-torn middle east, and I feel for them. They need our help, too. I just want this whole thing resolved.... I know it's a lot to ask for in this world, but I want to see this world more at peace. I wish people would have more respect for each other, no matter whether they believe the same things or not...

Sorry, this isn't directed at any of you here... I just know some people who are very close to me who are...shall we say, very opinionated about these things, and they seem to get...somewhat hateful and unpleasant when I happen to disagree with them. If I'm not all for them, then they perceive me as against them, and that's just not me. I try to remain more neutral, most of the time.... I want this world to be a better place for all people and all future generations... It makes me sad to see this world in the condition it's in currently... so much chaos, hate, fear.... People forget how to love....*END SOAPBOX*

Anywho, just ignore me if you want to. I certainly have no intention to bicker with anyone... I just have a lot of opinions, and sometimes I need to express them....
Thomas Kaira
*Begin Patriotic Music* Neither Afghanistan nor Iraq ever asked us for help, and we had no right to force it down their throats (at least, with Iraq). Afghanistan I can understand, with 9-11, the Taliban (who were the top dogs in Afghanistan at the time) had essentially declared war on the U.S., and we retaliated. This, of course, means we have to clean up the mess we left behind and ensure that the warlords that allowed for the genocide to happen are removed from power and (at least) tried for war crimes (an oxymoron if I've ever heard one).

But we had no business going to Iraq. It is not the job of this country to police the world and ensure "American Democracy" can be had by all. Because not everyone WANTS "American Democracy...."

*sound of record scratching*

Erm... I think we'd better call this one off before it gets out of hand. wacko.gif
mALX
I am more confident that bin Laden is dead after hearing John Brennan (homeland security) speak about the mission in total.


@ TK - hate to disagree with you on that, TK; but the Iraqi people absolutely begged for our help years before 911 and George Bush Sr. could not get the backing needed at the time to help them. Right after that, those that had been begging for help were tortured and gassed - including children and women. Literally thousands were slaughtered as traitors when they did ask for help.

Also, one of the Al Qaeda training camps found by American troops in Irag had a 35 foot mosaic of the planes going into the twin towers.
TheOtherRick
Oh my...I have to weigh in on this now...

First the disclaimer...the opinions expressed in this post are soley my own and do not represent the opinions of anyone smarter then me... laugh.gif

Iraq war...I don't believe we should have done it. We were duped into believing Saddam had WMD when the intelligence on this was sketchy at best. Having said that, if we HAD found WMD, I would eat the previously typed words. My personal opinion is that W wanted to finish what his daddy started and used 9/11 as an excuse.

Afgan war...When we went there, I was all for it. To me it was the Bin Laden hunt and not a war. But it has dargged out into a no win situation with a questionable exit strategy and timeline. Having said that, if we weren't over there, Bin Laden would still be alive right now. So it's a double-edged sword for me today, in light of last nights events.

Proud to be an American...(This one is toward Lady Syl...with no offense meant) The only way good education and decent healthcare will become available to the masses, instead of just to those who can afford it, is to get the Republicans out of office. I'm not a diehard liberal, but these people that aren't willing to chip in out of their pockets to live here (pay taxes) just piss me off. But even with all of our government's faults, there is no greater country in the world to live in. The fact that we can have this discussion is proof of that. I could not be prouder to be an American. The only part of America that I am not proud of are the 5% of the population at the top of the economic food chain that control more than 50% of this nations wealth.

At the risk of going further out on a limb...Personally, I think this country needs to go to a flat tax. Everyone pays the same percentage. 30%. If you make $100.00, you take home $70.00. What can you do with 100 million dollars that you can't do with 70 million dollars, besides by vacation homes, extra automobiles, and the occasional Lear jet. If everyone paid a flat tax, there would be no need for the IRS, because you don't file taxes anymore. That saves a load of cash right there. A 30% flat tax would run the country at a surplus and start paying down the debt.

ok....I'm off my soapbox now.... tongue.gif

Lady Syl
Rick - I agree with you on all of it. I am proud of the good of our country and what it's supposed to stand for. But I am disappointed in many things our country has been doing lately... Dems and Repubs (I'm neither--I am mostly liberal, but slightly conservative...if that makes sense...)


And I like your idea about the 30% taxes.... Never heard an idea like it before. smile.gif
mALX
QUOTE(TheOtherRick @ May 2 2011, 04:59 PM) *

Oh my...I have to weigh in on this now...

First the disclaimer...the opinions expressed in this post are soley my own and do not represent the opinions of anyone smarter then me... laugh.gif

Iraq war...I don't believe we should have done it. We were duped into believing Saddam had WMD when the intelligence on this was sketchy at best. Having said that, if we HAD found WMD, I would eat the previously typed words. My personal opinion is that W wanted to finish what his daddy started and used 9/11 as an excuse.

Afgan war...When we went there, I was all for it. To me it was the Bin Laden hunt and not a war. But it has dargged out into a no win situation with a questionable exit strategy and timeline. Having said that, if we weren't over there, Bin Laden would still be alive right now. So it's a double-edged sword for me today, in light of last nights events.

Proud to be an American...(This one is toward Lady Syl...with no offense meant) The only way good education and decent healthcare will become available to the masses, instead of just to those who can afford it, is to get the Republicans out of office. I'm not a diehard liberal, but these people that aren't willing to chip in out of their pockets to live here (pay taxes) just piss me off. But even with all of our government's faults, there is no greater country in the world to live in. The fact that we can have this discussion is proof of that. I could not be prouder to be an American. The only part of America that I am not proud of are the 5% of the population at the top of the economic food chain that control more than 50% of this nations wealth.

At the risk of going further out on a limb...Personally, I think this country needs to go to a flat tax. Everyone pays the same percentage. 30%. If you make $100.00, you take home $70.00. What can you do with 100 million dollars that you can't do with 70 million dollars, besides by vacation homes, extra automobiles, and the occasional Lear jet. If everyone paid a flat tax, there would be no need for the IRS, because you don't file taxes anymore. That saves a load of cash right there. A 30% flat tax would run the country at a surplus and start paying down the debt.

ok....I'm off my soapbox now.... tongue.gif



Oh, I agree with you 100% that we shouldn't have been there, I was just pointing out that we were not just asked to help them - we were begged to help them.

And you are exactly right that W was using 911 as an excuse to fulfill his Dad's promise to the Iraqi people that the US would help them. George Sr. took it hard when Saddam tortured and killed those he had promised to help, he gave his word he would and then couldn''t. W saw 911 as an opportunity to clear his Dad's conscience.

By the way, your flat tax idea is a great one !!
TheOtherRick
Flat Tax Poll - 2 Yeas...0 Nays...let's start a movement! laugh.gif tongue.gif
grif11
just heard on the news about osama.

Im not sure what to make of it, since yes it is good the man behind 9/11 and the london attacks is (supposedly) gone, but now the taliban are going to be fighting over who the new leader is going to be, and their going to be planning something big as revenge.

Also, my vote wouldnt mean much to you lot, since we get free healthcare, and its probably a completely different system (I dont do politics/big numbers), but it is a good idea.
Lady Syl
QUOTE(TheOtherRick @ May 2 2011, 04:24 PM) *

Flat Tax Poll - 2 Yeas...0 Nays...let's start a movement! laugh.gif tongue.gif


Sweet! How do we go about doing this? tongue.gif

QUOTE(grif11 @ May 2 2011, 04:26 PM) *

just heard on the news about osama.

Im not sure what to make of it, since yes it is good the man behind 9/11 and the london attacks is (supposedly) gone, but now the taliban are going to be fighting over who the new leader is going to be, and their going to be planning something big as revenge.

I just hope this is all over soon.


Me too. I am worried that the repercussions could be even worse.
mALX
Attention: House Compound For Sale !! Recent updates make this a must see !! Owner had to leave in a hurry, you will find this dream home fully furnished, with only several hundred holes in walls needing patched. Carpeting is a unique bright red pattern.



IPB Image




1.5 million, 9 black goats, 6 cows and 1 camel - or best offer!


*
Dantrag
There is WAY more to the Osama story than meets the eye.

#1 I find it hard to believe that the US killed him. Why kill someone with so much information that you've been hunting for the past 10 years? Either he's still alive and in custody (they just tossed his body into the ocean? really?) or they never found him in the first place.

#2 Who is even to say that he was even responsible for the attacks? Sure, we all have accepted that fact without question, but I've never been shown real, actual proof, and never heard anyone offer to give it. (The US claims to have classified data that proves his guilt, and the tape where bin Laden supposedly admits guilt has been criticized for being poorly translated)

I'm not a conspiracy theorist; I just realize that there are multiple sides to every story, and we only get to hear the one made up by Uncle Sam.
grif11
This is why I hate politics.

everything they claim to have done comes with no proof because its "classified".

Really, If there going to be saying stuff thats hard to believe, give us some proof of the deed, or dont bother telling us.

Also, Obama said that Osama was killed because "he was unarmed but resisted arrest" which I find ridiculous, since they could have either sedated or restrained him, since he stood no chance against a group of trained soldiers unarmed.
Olen
I'm going to agree with Dantrag here. The whole affair makes me uneasy.

We invaded Afghanistan to get him, hundreds of thousands of dead, ours and theirs, later we've killed him and there's wars across the world. Was it worth it? I'm not aware of any evidence that he actually did it, fair enough al qaeda seem the most likely candidates but it's hardly a monolithic organisation. Getting rid of the Taliban would have been ok, had we any idea what to do then and had the UN been involved, but history shows that Afghanistan is not a good country to get tangled up with.

Then we invaded Iraq looking for weapons which didn't exist and finding oil which did. Maybe there was more to it, but if it was really the Iraqi people we cared about why leave Saddam there ten years ago when there was a popular uprising in places? Again I don't like it. There is also the fact that there was no al qaeda presence there before because they hated Saddam's Ba'ath party (indeed they offered to attack Iraq in the run up to the first gulf war), now there is.

I don't really see how any of this helps, yes bringing him to justice is good, but in a court with a Jury not some assassination. And invading other countries has so far arguably strengthened extremist resistance. As I said the whole thing is a bit of a disaster.

On the subject of taxation a question: why would you go for flat rate over a sliding scale? In the UK it is 20% to £37,400 (I suspect there was a committee involved here), then 40% to 150k then 50% beyond that. Frankly if you're on over 150k you can afford it...
Lady Syl
QUOTE(Olen @ May 3 2011, 04:01 PM) *

I'm going to agree with Dantrag here. The whole affair makes me uneasy.

We invaded Afghanistan to get him, hundreds of thousands of dead, ours and theirs, later we've killed him and there's wars across the world. Was it worth it? I'm not aware of any evidence that he actually did it, fair enough al qaeda seem the most likely candidates but it's hardly a monolithic organisation. Getting rid of the Taliban would have been ok, had we any idea what to do then and had the UN been involved, but history shows that Afghanistan is not a good country to get tangled up with.

Then we invaded Iraq looking for weapons which didn't exist and finding oil which did. Maybe there was more to it, but if it was really the Iraqi people we cared about why leave Saddam there ten years ago when there was a popular uprising in places? Again I don't like it. There is also the fact that there was no al qaeda presence there before because they hated Saddam's Ba'ath party (indeed they offered to attack Iraq in the run up to the first gulf war), now there is.

I don't really see how any of this helps, yes bringing him to justice is good, but in a court with a Jury not some assassination. And invading other countries has so far arguably strengthened extremist resistance. As I said the whole thing is a bit of a disaster.

On the subject of taxation a question: why would you go for flat rate over a sliding scale? In the UK it is 20% to £37,400 (I suspect there was a committee involved here), then 40% to 150k then 50% beyond that. Frankly if you're on over 150k you can afford it...


This is true... You have made many excellent points here.
Captain Hammer
First off, I'd like to thank everybody for their birthday wishes. It's both gratifying, and immensely humbling, to see so many responses on the Birthday thread, especially since I noticed a particular lack of impersonal birthday messages therein. I say that here, on account of the fact that I feel that thread is for wishing others a Happy Birthday, and not to put myself on there to remind everybody else that I exist. You guys and gals do that yourselves, and each one of you rocks in a way to make Zenithar grin.

Okay, my 24-hours of "YOU MUST BE HAPPY!!!!" is officially over, so I now feel fine getting into this debate with all my opinions.

[Commence SOAP BOX]
When it comes to dealing with mass murderers and the types of persons willing to indiscriminately kill innocent civilians in pursuit of some radical agenda, the historical record is pretty clear on the benefits of trials. Although Adolf Hitler was never captured and tried for his crimes, the Nuremberg Trials were an important tool in bringing the Nazi Regime to justice. Granted, that's a historically debated issue as well, but much of the subsequent work in rebuilding Europe needed those trials to manifest a concrete example of the pursuit of justice.

I view Osama bin Laden as a monster cut from the same cloth and dyed in the same process as Hitler. Sure, you change the colors from Nazi-fascism to Islamic-extremism, but the core message of hatred and intolerance, to be enacted by any means necessary, stems from the same source. My grandparents would have preferred to have seen Hitler put on trial with the rest of his regime. I know that I already feel the same way about bin Laden. But I also know that there's no place on this earth for people like him.

Ultimately, I think I'm going to view his death as a necessary thing, neither good nor evil in itself, but required as some small counter-weight to the evil that man inflicted upon this world. As a mostly-deontological person, I normally view the death of any person as some type of wrong, whether a greater evil like murder, or a lesser evil in the case of self-defense. I can't bring myself to do so here. I would have preferred to see him put on trial. I know that his death doesn't end things, that global terrorism is not some organized mass of dominoes that will all topple now that one person is out of the picture. But it's a step in the right direction.

I agree with the president's decision to give the go-ahead. I think the SEAL team that did this represents the high pinnacle of U.S. Special Forces, and that their courage, and their skill, made the operation possible. I think that our operations in Afghanistan will benefit from this event. And I think the sea-burial was the best possible solution, both as a consideration of the time constraints for Islamic burial, and as a measure to prevent a grave-site from becoming a place for pilgrimage.

As for the war itself, both in Afghanistan and in Iraq, my feelings on each are mixed. Ultimately, I favor our involvement in the former, not our involvement in the latter, feel that we have incurred a massive debt to our troops (some of whom I got to know through various means), and that we need to acknowledge reconstruction as the only way to prevent this from happening again. For my longer, more detailed explanations of my feelings on the wars, and our obligations, feel free to PM me, and I'll send a response once I have composed one. But I've gone on long enough here, and I have things to do before I sleep. Plenty to do, before I sleep.
[/End SOAP BOX]
TheOtherRick
QUOTE(Olen @ May 3 2011, 04:01 PM) *

I'm going to agree with Dantrag here. The whole affair makes me uneasy.

We invaded Afghanistan to get him, hundreds of thousands of dead, ours and theirs, later we've killed him and there's wars across the world. Was it worth it? I'm not aware of any evidence that he actually did it, fair enough al qaeda seem the most likely candidates but it's hardly a monolithic organisation. Getting rid of the Taliban would have been ok, had we any idea what to do then and had the UN been involved, but history shows that Afghanistan is not a good country to get tangled up with.

Then we invaded Iraq looking for weapons which didn't exist and finding oil which did. Maybe there was more to it, but if it was really the Iraqi people we cared about why leave Saddam there ten years ago when there was a popular uprising in places? Again I don't like it. There is also the fact that there was no al qaeda presence there before because they hated Saddam's Ba'ath party (indeed they offered to attack Iraq in the run up to the first gulf war), now there is.

I don't really see how any of this helps, yes bringing him to justice is good, but in a court with a Jury not some assassination. And invading other countries has so far arguably strengthened extremist resistance. As I said the whole thing is a bit of a disaster.

On the subject of taxation a question: why would you go for flat rate over a sliding scale? In the UK it is 20% to £37,400 (I suspect there was a committee involved here), then 40% to 150k then 50% beyond that. Frankly if you're on over 150k you can afford it...

First I'll address the tax point. I feel...and again this is only my opinion...that a country that preaches equality for all should have that equality in all facets. A 30% number is a fair price to pay for living in the greatest country on Earth. Personally, if it provided free health care and free education, I would pay more than that.

I have already agreed with your point on Iraq. We should have finished the job when we were there the first time, instead of W having to find an excuse to finish it. We had the world behind us the first time because we were punishing an aggressor (the Kuwait invasion). The second war just pissed the world off.

Regarding Afghanistan, President Bush (in one of the few moments that I truly admired the man) stated that we would make no distinction between those that committed the act and those that harbored them. The Taliban government should have listened and kicked Osama out of their country. Their mistake. But now that we have killed the man, our business there is concluded from an objective point of view. Unfortunately, the country is such a mess now that we can't leave until the Taliban has lost the ability to wage war and a stable government can be installed by the people of Afghanistan.

Now I have a couple of nits to pick. Before I do, please remember that this is a healthy debate, not an argument, so I am not trying to anger anyone. First, "hundreds of thousands dead" is over stating it a bit. Tens of thousands or just over one hundred thousand is more accurate. Second, there is no doubt at all the Osama bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. The intelligence and evidence is way to strong. Strong enough to convict him in a court of law. He is dead because he choose to fight rather than surrender. That is the way of Muslim extremists. One can't get to paradise in a jail cell.

That being said, there is plenty of additional blame that can be doled out to the United States government for 9/11. We had several opportunities to capture or kill Osama before 9/11 happened, but because of politics, it didn't happen. We knew he was going to try it. We didn't stop him before he could.
Thomas Kaira
If I may interrupt for a moment...

Schools out for summer, now. cool.gif
haute ecole rider
For you maybe, but not for me! wink.gif
King Coin
QUOTE(Thomas Kaira @ May 5 2011, 12:57 AM) *

If I may interrupt for a moment...

Schools out for summer, now. cool.gif


cool.gif
same here. just got out of last final.
Acadian
For TK and KC: Happy summer! biggrin.gif

For Rider: Best wishes as you continue to plug away on that MBA!

Lady Syl
QUOTE(Thomas Kaira @ May 5 2011, 12:57 AM) *

If I may interrupt for a moment...

Schools out for summer, now. cool.gif


Ahh, I remember those days... wink.gif Congratulations! Enjoy your summer! biggrin.gif
Olen
QUOTE
First, "hundreds of thousands dead" is over stating it a bit. Tens of thousands or just over one hundred thousand is more accurate

For Afghan the current casualties are of order 20,000 dead and something like 50,000 injured. Still a high price to pay.

While I agree it seems likely that bin Laden was behind 9/11 he did deny it for several years which seems odd as he'd nothing to lose from taking responsibility... Also I've not seen this evidence, it's not public and having been lied to about weapons in Iraq I'd like to see it before I personally will be fully convinced, this is of course just my opinion. But I agree that he almost certainly did it (or at least knew about and supported it). I also agree that given that he appears to have the Taliban should not have sheltered him, however somewhere in the region of 9000 Afghan civilians were killed removing them many of whom probably hated the Taliban.

When I said hundreds of thousands I was referring to both wars. The death toll in Iraq is somewhere in the region of 900,000 with a further 1.6 million injured. Of the 900,000 dead the vast majority (over 850,000) were civilians. Add to this the half a million (UNICEF figure) Iraqi children who died as a direct result of sanctions after the first gulf war and I think it's fair to say a major victim of the whole affair has been the people of these countries we invaded. Really if it's to be for anything we need to rebuild these countries before we leave so that they can thrive and leave no room for the unpleasantness which grows so well in ruined countries.

Obviously these are the facts (well as close to fact as it's easy to find in such a volatile topic, the numbers were mainly from a report published in the lancet however I'd take them a ballpark figures and I've put opinions through them), what you make of them is of course your decision. I think more diplomacy might have been for the best, and not leaving Saddam in place the first time. However that's easy to say with a decade of hindsight.


On the subject of summer - enjoy it. Another 16 days for me (not that I'm counting...).
D.Foxy
When later historians remonstrated with Hugh Trevor-Roper on the horrific costs of World War II, in particular the allied bombings of Hamburg, Berlin, and Dresden, which killed at least 7 times - or perhaps even 10 times - MORE civilians than the German Luftwaffe did in its raids on British, Dutch, French, and all other allied cities COMBINED, Trevor-Roper Replied -

"The Greater Moral Sin would have been LOSING WW II".

Just the fact that Saddam's downfall caused the Libyan Nuclear Programme to come to a complete halt, the Syrian Progamme to go into stealth (and snail) mode, the Iranian Programme to lie low for at least three years, the A.Q. Khan network to be hamstrung, and the N.K. program of "proliferate for money" to lose one of its most eager - and rich - customers, would have justified in MY mind all the deaths that were caused.

And that's not even counting the thousand and one other benefits, some big, some small, some obvious now, some that have been becoming obvious in the past months, and some that will bear fruit in the decades to come, that will accrue to the USA, Europe, the Middle East, and the World at large.

Some people appear to think the world was born yesterday, the same age as themselves. I know - and historians know - that the problems of today had causes that go back at least half a century, and sometimes 3-400 years back.

And I also know this - that this is not the first time naive and myopic idiots have created the conditions for war out of an idealistic desire for peace. It was only 60 years ago that the pacifists of France and Britain, combined with the prejudiced and ignorant isolationists of the USA, created the political conditions that nearly allowed Herr Schicklgruber to overrun the world. It was only 30 years ago that the ideological children of these same pacifists were working night and day to ensure that NATO and the West would be disarmed and defenceless against Stalin and his heirs and imitators. It was only 30 years ago that the Hollywood glitterati, the American Literati, and the Liberal P.H.D'd militancies took out full page advertisments in American praising - wait for it - the POL POT GOVERNMENT of Cambodia.

Then as now they used the entire gamut of cherry-picked truths, half-truths, truth and lies in a blender, and even outright barefaced lies to serve their agenda.

(And for the record, I will say that not only has the Lancet lied, but its statistical cherry-picking and fact-cooking has been proved to be lies more than 5 years ago).

I for one am proud to be the heir to generations past that have stepped into combat against murderers in front and liars behind, and to be mentor to those who shall follow in our footsteps.

For heed this. The War 1914-1990 has ended, but the War 2001-? will go on beyond the lifetime of any of us on this forum. Our words on this forum - including these words of mine - matter for naught: it is our actions in our lives that count.
mALX
QUOTE(D.Foxy @ May 6 2011, 02:09 AM) *

* Snip *



WOOOOOOOOOT !!!!
Kiln
Frankly I would've been excited if they'd gotten Ol' Ben like ten years ago when I was still angry and full of hatred. Now personally its kinda like "oh good job guys better late than never, I guess."
haute ecole rider
@D.Foxy:
QUOTE
Our words on this forum - including these words of mine - matter for naught: it is our actions in our lives that count.
Amen, brother!
Lady Syl
QUOTE(haute ecole rider @ May 6 2011, 11:25 AM) *

@D.Foxy:
QUOTE
Our words on this forum - including these words of mine - matter for naught: it is our actions in our lives that count.
Amen, brother!


I'll second that, amen!
Grits
Here’s a postcard from Grits World.

My children have reached the age where they can go to some concerts, see most PG-13 movies, and hold a decent conversation that generally makes sense. Still, I am occasionally left wondering what planet I’m on. Like last night.

We were sitting around the table after a particularly delicious dinner, making our plans for the summer. A big vacation is not in the budget, but I have the gift of time. I had convinced them to forgo the usual string of half-day “fun” camps in favor of adventure out in the world. I was laying out the tactical plan.

“Right after school ends, we’ll go to the zoos and museums. We’ll hit it hard and get there first, while the others are still fooling around with sleeping in.”

Grits the Youngest is fully on board. Somehow I have reached the competitor deeply hidden under her complete disregard for anyone’s opinion. “We are going to strike like an apple,” she says with grim determination.

…What?

Of course, her brother gets her completely. “Because apples fly better than any other fruit,” he explains to me patiently.

Is that code for something? Are they messing with me? It could be a long summer.
treydog
After over 20 years of marriage, Mrs. Treydog and I naturally have phrases that make perfect sense to us, while leaving everyone else goggling at us... especially her (adult) kids.

An example is from one of the most (unintentionally) funny John Wayne movies of all time "Eldorado."

At one point, James Caan's character shoots (badly) at a bad guy and manages to miss him. In his defense he says- "Well, he was limping when he left!"

To which the Duke shouts in response "He was limping when he got here!"

Mrs. Treydog needs knee replacement surgery. She was recently involved in a minor, though scary traffic accident.

The paramedics were checking the other woman and then asked the Mrs. if she was OK. She said, "I think so."

Paramedic- "Well- you seem to be limping..."

You know the rest....
D.Foxy
All I wanna know is this - did the paramedic's jaw hit the floor, or only halfway?

As for you, Mrs. Grits, don't worry, you are not an alien and neither are your children - me and my sister had a really weird metalanguage full of idioms and metaphors and extragalactic vocabulary when we were young...
mALX
QUOTE(Grits @ May 7 2011, 08:33 AM) *


“We are going to strike like an apple,” she says with grim determination.



What?

Of course, her brother gets her completely. “Because apples fly better than any other fruit,” he explains to me patiently.



Is that code for something? Are they messing with me? It could be a long summer.



ROFL !!! I'll bet it is something they have seen in a cartoon, lol.


QUOTE(treydog @ May 7 2011, 08:43 AM) *


"

Paramedic- "Well- you seem to be limping..."

You know the rest....



I am so sorry to hear about that accident, (and the knee). I hope Mrs. Treydog is okay! Bless her heart !!


QUOTE(D.Foxy @ May 7 2011, 10:01 AM) *


me and my sister had a really weird metalanguage full of idioms and metaphors and extragalactic vocabulary when we were young...



See Grits? Your children are just growing up "Foxy!!"
Dantrag
QUOTE(treydog @ May 7 2011, 08:43 AM) *

After over 20 years of marriage, Mrs. Treydog and I naturally have phrases that make perfect sense to us, while leaving everyone else goggling at us... especially her (adult) kids.

An example is from one of the most (unintentionally) funny John Wayne movies of all time "Eldorado."

At one point, James Caan's character shoots (badly) at a bad guy and manages to miss him. In his defense he says- "Well, he was limping when he left!"

To which the Duke shouts in response "He was limping when he got here!"

Mrs. Treydog needs knee replacement surgery. She was recently involved in a minor, though scary traffic accident.

The paramedics were checking the other woman and then asked the Mrs. if she was OK. She said, "I think so."

Paramedic- "Well- you seem to be limping..."

You know the rest....


that movie is great. my parents didn't buy many movies when I was young, so most of the ones they had were really old (and mostly starring John Wayne). I've probably watched El Dorado a hundred times.
Ahrenil
Exam time, so much work, so much history, so many different Pharoahs and Queens and Senators and column orders and philosophers and ethicists...

Excuse me while I go have a small break down in the corner.
D.Foxy
GAAAAH. The Pac-Man, guy I love - make that loved - gave a lackluster performance which just goes to show that the Great God of Sport will either punish great ones who get arrogant or careless, or throw up obstacles to those who break records.

BEGIN RANT.

Where, O where was the demon destroyer of old? Where was the package that contained 175 pounds of Pinoy Destruction in a 145 pound frame? Perhaps the excuse that Manny gave after the fight was actually true - as the great Arche Moore said "The Legs...they go first" and age has finally caught up with the Pac-man.

Or perhaps after 100 million dollars plus and victories in eight different weight divisions ensuring not just a Hall of Fame ticket, but a podium finish for the "Greatest Boxer of All Time" sweepstakes, plus the adulation of the entire Phillippines, the old hunger in the heart for Victory has gone and what's left is just going through the motions for the next multi million dollar paycheck.

Whatever the case may be...the old Pac Man was MIA today.

END RANT

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