QUOTE(SubRosa @ Oct 26 2015, 12:53 AM)

I in the middle of a Star Wars movie marathon. I started with the prequels, and just finished Revenge of the Sith this afternoon.
My condolences. At least the worst is over now.
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Oct 26 2015, 12:53 AM)

On the plus side, the gadgets were nice to look at. I loved seeing the Pre-X-Wings, and Pre-Ties in Revenge. As well as the Pre-Lambda class shuttle. Seeing the Tantive IV back when it was shiny and new was cool as well. I think the art department did a fantastic job of creating the fore-runners of all the ships and devices we were so used to in the original movies. They looked really neat, and you could see how they would evolve into the X-Wings, At-Ats, and so forth.
Personally, that kind of bugged me. TIE fighters were such a huge step down from what was in the prequels that it makes them completely nonsensical. Also, what happened to R2-D2 between the trilogies? They ripped out half his systems!
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Oct 26 2015, 12:53 AM)

This is made even more glaring in The Clone Wars tv show. Here we see the Jedi showing true compassion for the Clones and forming friendships with them. The very first episode with Yoda and a group of clones was really outstanding in this. Because it was clear that to him, they were not just objects to be used and cast aside once they were broken. They were people - individuals - and he treated them so. They had value. In fact, you can see how the influence of the Jedi on the whole effects the clones for the better. Yet at the same time Yoda and the other Jedi ruthlessly threw the clones into the meatgrinder of the war, in order to spare the non-clones of the galaxy the same sacrifice. Somehow the clones lives were less valuable than anyone else's, obviously because they were clones, and not freebriths.
It popped up a lot in the books set during the Clone Wars, one of the reasons I love the Republic Commando books. They present it as a lack of choice scenario: As much as the Jedi feel for the clones, the Republic has no other army(and I cannot tell you how much this absurd premise being glossed over by the prequels annoys me) and the clones do want to fight, for the most part anyway. But of course, that doesn't come across in the films.
Considering Lucas' disdain for the Expanded Universe, it's ironic how much work it does patching up his plotholes and mistakes

QUOTE(SubRosa @ Oct 26 2015, 12:53 AM)

That always disturbed me about the prequels. So too did the whole nature of the Clone Wars. It was clones on one side fighting droids on the other. It feels like a war fought by proxy, where the people on both sides seem to have no real skin the game, because in the films at least, it seems that none of them are on the front lines. Except for the Jedi of course, and the Geonosians in Attack Of The Clones. I know the logic behind it all, Palpatine needed to be able to control both sides of the conflict in order to use it to gain power in the Senate. But I really wonder why no one - especially the Jedi - ever seemed to feel the wrongness of using the clones like that.
I actually think it feels worse than a war by proxy, simply because we're never presented any particular reason to actually care who wins. We know next to nothing about the CIS, only that they're fighting the Republic, we know it's a manufactured conflict right from the start, and we already know the outcome of the whole war, so it just becomes meaningless. It's just setting, nothing more than background for a badly written romance story necessitated by the original films, and a hamfisted attempt at making Anakin Skywalker a hero.
QUOTE(SubRosa @ Oct 26 2015, 12:53 AM)

I can kind of get it. The Jedi are taught not to form attachments. They don't fear the loss of their friends. They ask nothing more from the clones they do of themselves. They make the very same sacrifices, and die in battle right beside the clones. Just joining the Jedi Order means surrendering your freedom to live your life as you choose. But I think my point is, that the Jedi at least had an option to choose that for themselves. Count Dooku was a former Jedi. Which implies that it is possible to leave the Order. The Council was not going to train young Anakin at first either. So just being force-sensitive did not mean one was automatically entered in the ranks. The clones OTOH, never had a choice in the matter.
This is something else patched up by the Expanded Universe; The Darth Bane books. By the time the Clone Wars kicks off, the Republic has spent the last thousand years being subtly manipulated by the Sith. The Jedi were bound more tightly to the Republic(just look at the difference between the Clone Wars and the Mandalorian Wars referenced in the Knights of the Old Republic games, where the Jedi Council refused to participate in the war.), and were thus ensnared in its slow corruption, mired in the dark side by a slow acclimatisation to it. They became part of the power structure, little more than an arm of the Senate, and were forced into the war.
So it wasn't so much the Jedi code, or the way they indoctrinate new members(because let's face, that's pretty much what they do; taking them from their parents when they're very young, raising them to think and act a certain way, to suppress emotions and avoid attachment), as the fact that they're too divorced from everything around them, and that they've fallen from what they should be.
And the problem with the notion of simply leaving the Order is that the focus on Dooku implies a very secific reason for leaving. It's only in the books that we see Jedi leaving the Order in protest of the use of the Clone Army.
It's also worth noting that in the original Star Wars films(and in my opinion, the
real ones

) that the Jedi were portrayed more as neutral, rather than as good to Palpatine's evil. I mean, Yoda and Obi Wan's plan was to turn Luke into a weapon to slay his father, keeping him ignorant of the fact in order to use him. And it's suggested that if Luke fails they might be able to use Leia instead. Really, the whole perception of Jedi vs Sith as a conflict of good vs evil is mostly the fault of the Expanded Universe. In the original films it's more evil vs neutral, as a facet of the Rebellion vs Empire battle of good vs evil.
Btw; I got next to no real sleep last night, so I'm not sure I'm as coherent or concise as I was aiming for.