Eh Star Wars thread on the Bethesda forums lets bring it here. Anyway if anyone here love Red Letter Media and the Star Wars Pizza Roll review then you're in luck cause He's Baaaaack.

I love the part where he talks about the connection between the prequels and the original trilogy as it give you an insight that the prequels COULD have worked as proper Star Wars films, but it was the sloppy writing that did the most damage. The review is giving me an urge to rewatch the prequels.......Excuse me I need to take a shower in hot water and cry uncontrollably.

Awesome! I am a huge SW nerd. I'll check it out. Darth Maul was the only reason I liked episode I, though I don't like what they did with his character after that. New canon has some terrible stuff in it. The clones were not what they were meant to be in the Clone Wars after they introduced them in the cartoons. We have Dave Felonious to thank for that.

I haven't seen all of the Clone Wars series and I've only seen the pilot movie of Rebels the latter being more interesting to me. I'm still kinda wondering where my fandom lies most in either Star Trek or Star Wars as I love both equally.

You need to watch the whole series! It's good.

The Clone Wars is great. Simply great. As I've said, the clones had a better direction in the EU. The whole mind control-chip storyline that forced the clones to execute Order 66 and kill the Jedi was ridiculous.

But other than that its great. I prefer it to Rebels. Clone Wars is a bit more mature.

I'll try to get the series if I can.

Some of the things from The Clone Wars carries over to Rebels too. I think you won't be sorry if you get a chance to watch The Clone Wars in its entirety.

Yay, Star Wars!


But no need to name threads with numbers. We don´t really have a post limit here

We do actually have a Star Wars thread "The Nerf-Herder's Rest", but it's been dead for a while, so why not.

Wow, those videos go on a bit. I think I'll have to pass for the sake of my datacap.

I don't know that it was sloppy writing that let the prequels down. They always struck me as pretty much unnecessary, since we knew what was going to happen the moment we saw Anakin Skywalker and Senator Palpatine pop up. No matter how they could have written it, we were still being told a story we already knew the ending to. Though the fact that Lucas couldn't even keep continuity with his own films is hilarious.

And I agree with DE that Darth Maul was the only good thing about Episode 1.

Darth Maul alone was the only good thing about the Prequels for me. So much potential, so much untapped awesome potential..... IMO he should've survived and taken Grievous' place as Obi-Wan's main opponent. But then that raises the question of how Dooku would fit in in the scenario of Maul surviving, since having them both around violates the Ro2. Interesting stuff to think about nonetheless.

Luke Guys, I am your father there are no prequels or sequels. Only the Originals and Best

My mastery of Juyo and Trakata will cut your opinion down

Personally, I rather liked Dooku, even his fight against Yoda(Just for the comic value. I remember watching it in a cinema with a friend, and we couldn't stop laughing at it. It's kind of sad that that fight was still better than anything in Revenge )

And Maul definitely would have been a better choice than Grievous, though maybe have him go toe-to-toe with Mace Windu instead of Obi-Wan. That would have been such a cool fight.

I could see Sidious throwing a third Sith into the mix without any trouble. Part of his plan was that both Grievous and Dooku were expendable, especially once he's decided to make Anakin his apprentice. So if he's planning to kill both Dooku and Maul, all he needs to do is make sure they don't unite against him(easy enough given their characters) and he can just let the Jedi kill them, remain hidden, and recruit Anakin afterwards.

Dooku was... I dunno, he lacked that pure punch of impression that made him memorable as an entity for me. It could be that I saw him more as Saruman In Space! that tilts me to this view, heh. His duels were meh as well, but it couldn't be helped I suppose, the actor portraying him wasn't young anyway (RIP Christopher Lee).

Maul vs Mace? HOHOHOHO, now that's certainly a duel for the ages. I always entertained the thought that Maul has a decent chance of winning, but the wombo combo that is Shatterpoint and Vaapad is just beyond even his martial excellence. Maul would probably get his head cut off like Daddy Fett after a lengthy and epic showdown.

I could totally see Sidious doing that kind of iconoclastic move considering that in the EU he essentially had a legion of dark siders at his beck and call (abused a loophole in the Ro2), but IMO having two Sith would probably present more risks than benefits in the long run. I mean they might be pawns, but pawns can still eat kings and I can see one of them revealing who Palpatine really is to the Jedi after realizing Palpatine's penultimate goal of casting them aside.

That was actually one of the things I liked about Dooku. He wasn't in-your-face hostile like Maul was. He was megalomaniacal like Sidious. He was restrained, presented as much as being against the corrupt Jedi order as anything else. And I personally preferred his dueling style to that of the other saber-jockeys in the films, because his usage, in my opinion, was more in line with Obi-Wan's description of the weepon in A New Hope: "An elegant weapon... for a more civilized age.".



Well, with Maul being a more fierce opponent, it would leave Mace skirting the dark side a little closer than usual in order to win. But I agree, it would make for an epic fight which Mace wins. But it would have been the best lightsaber fight in the Star Wars universe!



They could try and reveal Palpatine, but one's a Sith and the other walked out on the Jedi Order to become a Sith. I don't see the Jedi believing either one of them. As for realising Palpatine's penultimate goal; Dooku and Grievous never saw it coming, and both of them were looking at the strategy behind the war. I could see Palpatine taking that risk to make sure he can pull off his plan. It even gives him a little added incentive for sending out Maul in Episode One(I can't bring myself to name that film) since the Jedi wouldn't trust Maul after he openly opposes them as a Sith.


Of course, all of this would have relied on Lucas' ability to pull this off, so it would probably have made the prequels even worse

Less on Lucas' ability to pull it off and more on the Jedi's basic ability to understand what was said to them, really. Like, Dooku actually said to either Anakin or Obi-Wan that the Senate was actually in control of the Sith and come Revenge when the reveal was set up, they were actually surprised! Derp

Essentially all the Sith do is backstab one another. I believe Dooku was fooled into Sidious' plan and genuinely believed he had a part to play in the great Sith-dominated future. Darth Vader was seduced but he also planned on using Sidious to save Padme. After Palpatine revealed himself as a Sith Lord and became his new mentor, I think Vader began to see some similarities with him and Obi-Wan. There's a part in the novel that explains this well enough. In the end Vader wanted to overthrow The Emperor and rule the galaxy with Padme.

I still think the clone inhibitor chip introduced in the Clone Wars cartoon was a bad idea.

The fact that it’s supposed to make clones less independent and more loyal? Got it. Tracking. I can get behind that. The fact that it sort of overrode all brain power and made them compliant zombies for Order 66? Stupid.

They could’ve said that, under direct order, clones knowingly gunned down their own Jedi generals and I would have no problem believing it.

Look who gave the order. The Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic personally contacted clone commanders. That’s like if the President of the United States personally called me and told me that my general was now a traitor to the country. Why would I have reason to doubt the President? He gets intel briefs from echelons and agencies I’ve probably never even heard of. And here he is telling me that my general is compromised. It doesn’t matter if I’m on good terms with the general; once that information is made known, it now colors all my opinions and assumptions.

Not everyone knows the general. It’s great to see how well Torrent Company gets along with Anakin. The 212th with Obi-Wan. The Wolfpack with Plo. In the military, outside of formal ceremonies where you see the brass from a distance, some servicemen have to meet their general face to face. 99% of clones (millions of clones, thousands of Jedi) are NOT going to interact with someone as high ranking as the general. They’re not going to form the bond that the clone commanders had with their superiors. They’re not going to have experiences that would possibly make them question an order from the Supreme Chancellor, and are more prone to follow a command from someone who is considered to outrank even the Jedi.

Contingency plans for worst-case scenarios exist. “If this were to happen, no matter how unlikely, we’ll respond like this.” On the surface, Order 66 appears to be a sensible precaution. It gives clones, bred to be unwaveringly loyal, the ability to remove their general from power if that general becomes compromised. And while you look at Jedi like Obi-Wan and Mace Windu and think, “How would clones ever believe these guys could be bad?” I look at a Jedi like Pong Krell and think, “Order 66 this loser now.”

Their duty is to the Republic, not their general. Solidarity is great, but if your leadership is now believed to be helping the enemy– in any capacity– your friendship is worthless anymore. Order 66 implies their Jedi already betrayed them by working against the interests of the Republic. Betraying the Republic is treason. Treason during warfare is punishable by death. (Civilian mindset: That’s too harsh a punishment! Military mindset: No, it’s not.)

The brain chip strikes me as lazy storytelling from people who don’t grasp the military mindset. It’s the “Greedo shot first” way out of a situation: to make clones look like the victims of the "evil" Palpatine instead of the aggressors. And while it could be argued that the brain chip fully takes away their ability to make decisions, basically turning them into obedient droids and further violating their humanity (adding to the long list of injustices the clones suffered because the Kaminoans saw them as less-than-sentient), it comes across as a cop-out. “The clones aren’t bad. They were taken advantage of! Palpatine’s the only bad one here.”

Without the brain chip, you’re left with: men who were given a direct order from the highest echelon to legally implement a contingency plan they’d had all along to eradicate a superior that was now seen as a willful traitor.

Tell me that clones knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily executed Order 66 against their Jedi leadership, and I’d believe it. Battlefront II had the clones knowing that if came down to it, and the Jedi were deemed traitors to the Republic, they would do it sans hesitation.

Clone Wars was awesome, I just finished it recently. Sadly, that show got the Anakin the movies should've had.

Totes excited for Rogue One!

Me to. Can't wait to see Vader kill some terrorist/Rebel scum!

To be fair to the Jedi, I'm not sure if its said just how many knew how clouded the Force had become, and how little the Jedi Council could actually see. And it's not as though Obi-Wan(I'm pretty sure it was him)had any reason to trust Dooku, who was not only one of those who turned away from the Order, but was working with those who'd imprisoned him(If I'm remembering the scene correctly).



Strictly speaking it's not all the Sith do. They have unified numerous times, generally for another crusade against the Republic or the Jedi. But their philosophy does lead them to think a certain way, and knowing what they've done(or would be prepared to do) in the name of acquiring power, it's no real surprise.

Dooku knew what the Jedi had become; enforcers propping up a corrupt and failing Republic, then he learned it was all part of an elaborate and long term Sith scheme. My guess is that he felt more trapped than anything else: It was too late to save the Jedi, centuries too late, and he knew how much damage had been done in previous Sith wars against the Republic. In one of the books he even goes so far as to try and return to the Jedi Order. And Vader was more a dark Jedi than a Sith at that point, considering how at the end of the film he was throwing around words like "evil" in relation to the Jedi(which felt hilariously forced, by the way). And let's face it, Vader's idea of overthrowing Palpatine was far better handled in The Empire Strikes Back.



Yeah, that does sound like a horrible idea.

But Order 66 was very much a blanket policy. It couldn't be used to remove a general, only to remove that entire level of the chain of command. Having a contingency plan to remove pretty much everyone between the commander-in-chief and the clone commanders in the field does seem a little extreme. But then, the Clone Army was always part of the trap, they just didn't know it.

One of the things I like about some of the Clone Wars books is that some of the clones, usually commandos who have more independence than the standard clone trooper, didn't carry out Order 66. In particular I'm rather fond of the Republic Commando books, though no so much the last one, as they explain(or in other words, patch the holes of) a lot of what went on.

Personally, I think Order 66 has its problems. For one thing, if entire levels of the chain of command have turned traitor, not just certain individuals, then that's the sort of thing that would require actual evidence. If the president of the US issued an order to summarily execute every high ranking officer in the army on charges of treason, without a shred of proof or even the pretense of due process, I sincerely doubt even a single shot would be fired.

And that's the one of the biggest problems the movies have, in my opinion. It's clones versus droids, and frankly you might as well call it meat droids versus metal droids, going on the films. But the more you humanise the clones, the harder it becomes to square that unthinking, unquestioning response to Order 66. Because as far as the film is concerned, not one clone questioned or disobeyed that order. And it's not just Jedi in the field that were being targeted, but those at the Jedi Temple who hadn't even been involved in the fighting. To use your US example again, if the order in the previous paragraph were extended to include the summary execution of children on the same charge, the army would just turn around and arrest the President.

The kind of unthinking obedience displayed by the clones fundamentally undermines any attempt to present them as anything more than droids made of flesh and bone instead of metal. The inhibitor chip is a shoddy patch for a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place, in my opinion.

Yes. You're right. When you mention evidence being required and proof for the charges put to light, what comes to mind when Mace Windu essentially tried to murder Palpatine without a trial. But again this brings your point up about the other Jedi in the temple being targeted.

I recall James Luceno's work in Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader.




The issue here was humanizing them in the first place. I am very ticked off the Republic Commando books are non-canon anymore. After Disney took over, plenty of the good stuff was removed and while they may take inspirations from Legends, it won't be the same.

They tried to arrest Palpatine, who accused them of treason and then attacked, so I wouldn't exactly call it murder.

But there are no redeeming features to that entire sequence. It's just awful from start to finish, to the extent that I had to find a video of it because I'd erased it from my memory.



I love that book. It did so much more for the transformation from Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader than the entire prequel trilogy did.

It's kind of funny how the books spend so much times patching holes and generally doing a better job of telling the stories, given Lucas' disdain for the Expanded Universe.



Well, it looks like they've already started pinching bits from the Expanded Universe, if episode seven is anything to go by. It sounds like they just mixed episode four and Knight of the Old Republic together and made a film out of it.

True. Hell, even the Revenge of the Sith novel did an amazing job with Skywalker in my opinion. The reason he wanted Mastery was to gain access to the holocrons and discover the secret to saving his wife. The movie didn't go full detail.

Maybe because of that's the reasonThe Bearded One hates EU.

Now I meant to say that Mace Windu tried to execute Sidious/Palpatine. The Jedi Masters went to arrest him, he resisted, and then Windu decided that keeping the Sith alive would be dangerous. That's when Anakin interevened. So it was treason . . . from my point of view

For fans of Dash Rendar and Shadows of the Empire I give you The Outrider.
It transforms into a B-wing like attack mode, some say it's not very "movie" accurate but for a collector and before the Star Wars X-wing miniature game came out, its the only thing close to having Dash's cool ship.

I love that game. I still play it at least once a year.

The movie didn't really go into any detail.

Well, Palps had killed three Jedi in resisting arrest, so he clearly was dangerous. And even without a lightsaber he could cause plenty of damage with his lightning. And that's before considering the way he's manipulated the Senate, the Jedi Order, and by extension the entire Republic. Threats don't really get any bigger than that.

But I'm a little confused here. Doesn't the fact that he's committing treason, on the highest possible scale, pretty much invalidate his position? I mean, he is the one responsible for the war.



I never played the game, but I read the book. I always thought it was a much better ship than the Falcon, if only because it worked.

But as far as I'm concerned, there's no ship in the Star Wars universe to match the Ebon Hawk!

I miss that game, I no longer own a N64 but I could hunt down the Pc version.

Edit:
Speaking of which my Amazon order came in, it's the Micro Machines Shadows of the Empire set with Dash Rendar, Leebo, Luke and IG-88's Hounds Tooth (off screen).
Battle of Hoth Playset now with Shadows of the Empire cast.

I finally found Him!!!

You mean you think you've found him...

Careful, it could be a trap!

Trap indeed

I'd like to think that there's moral ambiguity in the Star Wars Universe, that the Empire and the Emperor at least follow the rule of law, that many of the accusations against the Empire by the rebels are either specious or completely unfounded. But this topic is the one aspect of Star Wars that I absolutely hate, and yet another example of George Lucas' unimaginative writing. Unfortunately, Disney seems to have carried this lack of imagination into The Force Awakens and Rogue One, so the new canon is already fatally flawed.

To answer what you wrote, we know that Emperor Palpatine is not the "good guy" because, at its heart, Star Wars is a staid morality tale with all the usual tropes about good guys and bad guys. Star Wars was even the medium in which the "evil empire" stereotype first developed, later popularized in Reagan's 1983 speech about the Soviet Union. We know that Palpatine is evil because he's a cardboard cut-out of a villain. His outward appearance (hooded and disfigured like your standard Saturday morning cartoon villains), his ridiculous and overly-dramatic mannerisms, and his occasional ranting about absolute power are all the markers of a writer who wanted a prop to stand in as the figurehead of the evil Galactic Empire because he didn't have the time or inclination to create an actual character.

That's the Doylist explanation anyways, which is the only one that makes sense. In the Watsonian explanation, Palpatine would probably argue that he's only evil "... from a Jedi's point of view. The Sith and the Jedi are similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power. The difference between the two is the Sith are not afraid of the dark side of the Force. That is why they are more powerful."

The only moral ambiguity in the original films is found in the Jedi. Obi-Wan and Yoda train Luke to kill his father in ignorance(without telling him, even though they let Luke live under his real name so that Vader knows), try to stop him saving his friends, and don't really care about the Rebel Alliance, just Vader. And then, in Return of the Jedi, Luke ditches the Rebels on Endor to go on a personal mission to bring his father back from the dark side. Clearly the Jedi aren't the good guys, even though Palpatine and Vader are the bad guys, and I actually like that.

And really, you expected Disney to be imaginative when handed a franchise the size of Star Wars?



Sure, it's a shame that Palpatine's a caricature rather than a character, but this doesn't answer what I asked. Palpatine in the prequels is pretty different to Palpatine in the originals, because he has an actual goal, and a plan to accomplish it. And it's actually a pretty good plan. An army cloned from a bounty hunter who can kill Jedi, a stage-managed war that scatters the Jedi across the Republic, surrounded by clone troopers that they believe to be on their side, and a trap that snaps shut without warning. Top that off with Vader and the only thing that actually goes wrong with his plan is getting disfigured by fighting Windu. And if the prequels had been written half-decently he'd get bonus points for being subtle and manipulative in turning Anakin to the dark side. He's not just a bland, cackling overlord.

But calling Windu trying to kill him treason implies that his actions in no way invalidate his position as Chancellor of the Republic, and that's what I was asking about.

Man my Star Wars collection is growing, the newest figures are the U-wing and an Imperial Ground Worker. So far I like the U-wing as it has a pretty neat design to it.

Got the new Rogue One Death Star and compared to the old Galoob one it's pretty awesome.

As much as Khajiit loves the Sith, they are always getting their asses kicked.

They do have their moments though, even if they end up being chronically overused to set the scale of a story only to lose once it actually gets going. But at least they do better than Dark Jedi.

Both Micro Machines Death Star Playsets:

So far I'm looking forward to Rouge One, from all the trailers I've seen it looks like a kick ass film and we get introduced to two new ships, the Tie Striker, U-Wing and a possible Imperial X-Wing Prototype so here's my take.
The Tie Striker from what me and Khajiit could dig up its mostly a planetary patrol and cargo (possibly a troop transport as well) and therefore probably not suited for heavy space combat like the regular tie fighters or interceptors but they could be used if needed as a last ditch effort.

Next is the U-Wing and from what I gather much like the Striker it's mostly a sub-orbital troop transport and close support craft (think A-10 warthog if the A-10 could carry troops). The U-Wing could operate in space but I don't think its meant for heavy space combat like the X-Wing, Y-Wing, A-Wing and B-Wing are.

Lastly from what I think is an Imperial prototype X-wing seen here and the Dan-o Channel on YouTube kinda agrees with me on, this might be the Imperial's only X-wing and I say that cause from what I've gathered from SW lore the X-Wing was intended for the Galactic Empire but the Incom Corporation being sympathetic to the Rebels gave them some X-Wings but nothing in lore says that the Empire did at least get one and since this Rogue One X-wing has Imperial Colors that's why I think it's the Empire's only X-wing...but that's just a theory---A STAR WARS THEORY! Thanks for watching .

Khajiit is confused about the state of the canon in the Star Wars franchise now that Disney has bought it. From what he understands, the only thing official is the films and TV shows (The Clone Wars and Rebels), but that leaves a lot up in the air. This one thinks it's safe to say all of the stuff in the expanded universe that happened after RotJ is now irrelevant. What about the stuff that happened before the events of Episode 1? They canonized Darth Bane in the Clone Wars TV series so does that also mean by extension that Revan and all of the events surrounding him are also canon, since it was from one of Revan's holocrons that Darth Bane learned of the "Rule of Two"? So many questions.

Strictly speaking, Darth Bane's "Rule of Two" wasn't so much learnt from the holocron as a conclusion he came to following what Revan said. It was based on what Revan told him, but it was still Bane's idea.

And I believe that the rule is everything from the Expanded Universe is non-canon, not just the post-RotJ material.

As for the rest, I haven't seen any of the Clone Wars series, but I suspect that what's happened is this: Darth Bane has been canonised to bring in the notion of the Sith playing the long game against the Jedi, and to explain the fact that there are only two Sith(since it contrasts significantly with everything else formerly in the Star Wars Universe that dealt with them). Nothing further is canonised by extension since nothing else is directly necessary.

Though watch out in the new films to see them cherry-picking more elements from the books and games to prop up their stories. They've already started.

Thanks for the clarification, Khajiit was afraid of this.

Re: Cherry picking
Kylo Ren's character design reeks of knocking off Revan. It's a little different but still pretty much the same.

The first time I saw the mask I only caught a glimpse of it, and it left me wondering what Revan was doing on a pack of batteries!

But a good sized chunk of The Force Awakens reeks of KotOR, blended with A New Hope. I won't even watch it. The only thing I like about it is that kinda funky droid that rolls around, though I don't know how practical that design would actually be.

Bahahahaha!

From what I gathered everything that was in the Expanded Universe is no longer canon (Kyle Katarn, Mara Jade and so on) but is now considered as Legends, but stuff that goes on in Clone Wars, Rebels and the movies are canon. Basically we got a Star Wars Prime and Legends Universe.

Yeah, as he said before, Khajiit was afraid of that. Shame. There was some good stuff in there, especially with the BBY stuff.

I really do not care. Whether a story is considered "canon" or not by whatever company currently owns the rights to the Star Wars universe does not make it any more or less entertaining. A good story is a good story, and is worth reading or watching on its own merit.

True, but it does make this one a bit bitter when excellent stories like KotOR are relegated to little more than fan fiction after having been canon for years.

I have read many fan fiction stories that are far superior to books in print. So I do not see anything to be bitter about. Life is too short to be bitter of things an entertainment company does. Search your feelings. Let go of your hate!

Perhaps "bitter" wasn't the word Khajiit was looking for. "Annoyed" probably fits better. This one definitely isn't losing any sleep over it