So, keep writing, but throw in more time with the character between drafts?

Sounds like a plan. Thanks y'all!

Good luck Callidus!

Hey guys. Just to clear some doubts here. This is more of a lore question than anything else. But for my upcoming story I have a few central characters. The thing is, can we really write about "normal" characters in a world of fantasy and magic? From what I've gathered, magical spells are for the arcane-savvy or those who have the affinity for it. Or those who pop up a spellbook and learn from there while gradually improving their skills based on knoweldge. I could be mistaken but I believe there are NPC's in Skyrim and Oblivion that can't cast spells. it is possible, that in Cyrodiil, there are people, common folk and farmers who can live over forty years and never have casted a spell in their life?

I mean the ES is abundant with magic. But there are exceptions . . . right?

And has anyone ever wrote about a character who is no warrior, no mage, no archer or adventurer but only a peasant?

Just a personal opinion here, but I think in a world that has magic, pretty well everyone will make some use of it. Even if it's only to heal themselves when they take a fall, or to start a campfire. Women will make themselves look as good as they can, and some men too. if there's a contraceptive spell, you know that will get used!

Acadian's Buffy uses frost to kill bugs in her bedroll, and keep the meat from her hunting fresh. There are a whole lot of other mundane uses in SubRosa's tales, too.

It can also be a useful reason for not having technology in its place. Your characters aren't backward, they just have an easier way to do that.

I have wondered that too; because (like you); I thought that maybe someone poor or brought up without any training of their innate abilities might not know how to cast a spell, or use the magic they might have been born with.

So I'm kind of in agreement that there might be people found in the world who are not magically inclined; or have never learned to use any powers they may possess.

The magic has to come from somewhere within them, and maybe unless they want something badly enough, they may never learn to tap into it.

Like what Ghastley said about the healing - I guess if they were injured or in pain, they may want it to stop so badly that their magicka comes to their aid without them even knowing how it happened; but without the knowledge/training/and practice, it might be just barely enough to keep them alive long enough to get themselves to a healer, etc.

(imho).

I was actually thinking about this the other day, and I agree with mALX in that some people just might not know how to use magic even if everyone has the innate ability. Magic comes from Aetherius, right? Everyone except an atronach should therefore have a replenishing magicka reserve even if they can't tap into it.

Also, spells are pretty much controlled by the Mages Guild, and they're expensive, so the average man on the street might not be able to afford to learn them.

Maybe it would also be difficult to learn spells. How magic works is never fully clear. Do you just wave your hand and fire comes out? Do you have to think of fire? Is there a magic chant? I always assume that magic is tricky to learn which is why mage-types are always so hard at work with their studies. If you were a farmer, would you be able to spend loads of time and money learning how to start a campfire, or would you carry on with your farming and light fires with more traditional methods?

It's certainly very interesting to think about.

Every player character starts out knowing a healing and flare spell. But that does not mean every other person in the world does as well. It is really just a question of how you choose to define the world. Magic can be something everyone can do, or only certain people born with a gift for it.

Likewise simple forms of magic such as lighting a candle or washing your hair might be as easy as a snap of your fingers. Or it could take days or months of study and practice. Higher magic might be just as easy, or tremendously more difficult.

The real question is how do you want it to be. It is your world. The moment you start writing you make it your own. Have it work however you want it to for your story.

The commonly useful spells, like healing and fire-lighting, you'd learn from your parents, because they'd be using them all the time. Maybe the one for freezing bugs out of the bedstraw, too.

The question of how someone born Atronach deals with it is interesting. Since you get a small amount of effect from eating an ingredient, they'd probably learn to eat something particular to help them heal themselves by spell, as well as finding plants that did it directly. Herbal cures versus professionally made potions is the same situation with or without magic. You pay more, you get more. Many will consider the difference isn't worth the cost.

And the games all provide a healing starter spell that's not OP, but you could tone that down a lot. It will heal a grazed knee, but not a broken bone, for example. Wounds heal faster with help, but not instantly.

DE, I really don't know what the Lore says about it, but I do know that your magic spells for the player (other than the fire-balll and rudimentary healing) are learned through practice and training; and you can buy spells but have to be a certain skill level in that magic discipline to actually use them.

On the NPC's, I have run across some that used no magic at all in their attack; and if you just injured them and went invisible and watched - most would heal themselves, but I've seen a couple just stand there with their lowered health bars. So either the developers didn't give them the spell to heal or they just weren't using it due to some unknown cause.

Off topic a bit, but one of the things I love about the magic in ESO is that it comes from the universe itself. Templars draw power and magic from the sun and sky; the Dragon Knights draw it from the "earth" (and using the spells causes them to temporarily become the earth they draw their power from - Britta looks like she is made of mud for several seconds after her spell is cast).

Nightblades draw their power from darkness, the shadows and the moon; and Sorcerers draw their power and magic from Daedric sources; they are true mages through and through.

It makes sense that magic is in the environment to be tapped by those who learn the secrets of how to release and use it. But that learning comes with time, practice, and at the cost of choosing where to lay your skill points, lol.

The lore doesn't make a definitive statement one way or the other. We do know that the Mages Guild was founded because certain members of the Psijic Order believed that magic should be accessible to the masses. One can extrapolate that to mean that, at one time at least, magic was only available to the nobility or those with the resources to afford it (like hazmick already said).

My advice piggy-backs on what 'Rosa has already said. Establish the framework of how magic works within the confines of your story and then stay consistent to that framework. As readers we are willing to go with you on just about anything as long as the rules remain constant.

Ah that's the thing. I like to stay as close to lore as possible. 100% if possible. It's terrible when Bethesda can't explain these simple things. But I suppose it's up to us to work with it like Subrosa said. mALX, I recall many NPC's not using magic at all so I had my doubts if it was intentional or just game programming. Most likely the latter. But thank you so much guys. Ghastly, Sub, MALX, Hazmick and Destri. You've given me great advice.

It would make sense that lowly farmers would not have too much access to magic lest they go after it in some local mage shop near town or something.

So I'm debating something where I'd be curious to know what other people's opinions are and how they handle this in their own fic. It basically amounts to: how many unexpected plot twists are too many unexpected plot twists? At what point do you start foreshadowing more heavily/adding sections from other POVs in order to give people some knowledge of what's coming?

Currently, I write a very very limited point of view: Adryn, first person, from the perspective of the extremely near future (so no "little did I know then..." or "I would come to regret that..." except from the perspective of a few hours later, maximum). One of the side effects of this is that there are a significant number of things going on around her that she has absolutely no idea about until they hit her like an anvil.

Now - I love writing like this. I love doing very subtle foreshadowing (veiled by the fact that although Adryn is seeing it, she's not recognising the signs for what they are). I love knowing that there are things which I'm laying the foundations for now but which will almost certainly be extremely shocking and unexpected when they happen. A few of them are big enough that the overall tone of a number of scenes will change completely thanks to the new context, and knowing this gives me great, great joy.

But... there are a *lot* of these, and a lot of them will hit their pay-off in the very very distant future. (We're talking the second half of SitC or near the end of the MQ here.) I'm worried it might be too many unexpected very-subtly-foreshadowed plot twists for the readers, and I'm worried that the fic will come off as a lot more shallow and unplotted than it really is (in my opinion ) for quite a long time until things start tying together.

So I'm pondering doing an interlude chapter where we leave Adryn's point of view and see what's going on in the world around her and how she's set certain things into motion. The upside is that a number of plot twists will be a little more expected. (Also, getting to stretch my writing muscles - writing Adryn is a joy but it's still a very specific type of prose with very little deviation.) The downside is that... a number of plot twists will be a little more expected. One thing in particular would probably end up almost entirely laid bare (with significant implications for how readers view a number of future scenes). My spoiler-hating heart protests this idea, but my writerly instincts say it's necessary in order to make this part of the story as interesting as the part fifty-odd chapters down the line.

I'm not really looking for other people to tell me yea or nay (especially since I don't want to discuss specifics on the open forum because, well, spoilers! ) so much as wondering how other people deal with foreshadowing and surprise plot twists vs letting people in on some of the things brewing ahead of time.

It is impossible to give specifics on how much is too much. My basic rule of thumb is that there should be just enough information out there for the reader who is paying close attention to note. It doesn't have to be enough for them to figure out exactly what is going to happen. But at least enough for them to think "there is something else going on here."

Going back to my recent watching of the Hungry Games, in the final movie I began to wonder if the revolution was really going to install a peaceful, democratic regime, or just replace one dictator with another. Mostly that is because one character told another that a certain person now viewed her as a competitor rather than an ally. Then near the end something happens which clinches it.

I think this, but I'd add that personally I always think that the reader should know as much about what's going on as the protagonist(s).
Having said that, there are like a ton of variables: What viewpoint is the story from, what tense is it in, is the fourth wall being broken at any point, dramatic tension, and so forth...

I'm running out of things for Clark to do in Skyrim. After nearly ninety chapters, all done with someone else becoming Dragonborn, Arch-mage, destroyer of the Dark Brotherhood, etc. and some extensions to the game from mods I created, he's just about seen and done it all.

So who do I write about next? I have twenty draft episodes of Kothet, who's only just ready to go see the Greyeards, with his housecarl. A little less of my Orc lass who just built her own stronghold, and a page or two of Munchkin. Munchkin is a nice challenge, because I don't really know anyone to base her on.

I'll probably continue writing Kothet anyway. I've started his story on my web site already. I may do one here, and another at Haven, too.

I can understand if you want to wind down Clark - he's had a magnificent run across two games. I peeked at your intro stuff on Kothet and you instantly dissipated any concerns about how to give personality to a dremora. I like him already.

My advice? Write what moves your passions. That said, winding down Clark then sharing Kothet's tale with us would be grand!

Is it started already? I need a link, don't want to get behind on Ghastley's new stories; I'm still catching up on the Gweden Brothel!

Can someone send me a link?

Link is embedded in the words 'started his story'.

It's the mods that are the main focus, and writing the stories was done to help the mods make sense. Which is why Kothet is the prime candidate for this.

Oh! I responded to that off my email notice, it doesn't show embedded links, sorry about that!

I think what I'll do is start Kothet here with that one episode I linked to and then put it on hold until Clark is done. Then I'm committed, and might continue. And mALX can read it here, and not need the link.

Since Kurdan is going to build a Stronghold over at Haven, I won't compete/contrast/contradict with that, so maybe I need to tell them about Munchkin. Or Cat-man Dhou? - he's one of my few characters that lets me show screenshots of his story.

(This one has a few problems with thinking of himself in third person, but he is taking lessons from Tsarina.)

He may be taking lessons from Malan if he talks about himself in 3rd person,

I've hit a block with Kothet. After twenty chapters, he's finally in a position to discover/decide his housecarl's name, but I can't decide how that happens.

Does he get to choose a name for her? Prizna got hers from the CoC when he rescued her, but that's now set the precedent for female Dremora to have their own names. But do they all get one? or do they still have to earn the right? Kothet doesn't know, and she hasn't told him what's being going on in the Deadlands since he was effectively exiled by the gates closing. Only that Dagon approved of Prizna's actions, as he likes anything getting broken, and that includes rules.

And I'm having problems picking one myself. Xandra is my character that's doing the inverse of Kothet's story, building the tower and getting a male housecarl (with no known name), so that's one possibility. But "Prizna" was a meaningful name for her situation, and I'd rather do that again, if I can find one.

When I think housecarl, I think of their primary role: defend their liege from all foes. Honing in on what should be a protective/defensive nature brings the name Barbican to mind - a fortified outpost or gateway protecting the outer walls of a city, castle or Thane. Oh, and you could call her Barbie for short!

A Barbie doll! WOO HOO !!!!

If you need a reason why some female dremora would have names already and some need to be given one, perhaps their caste system doesn’t allow names for dremora who are beneath the Churl rank? Just an idea.

In ESO Jerric knows some named female dremora from Coldharbour, and Darnand has met one who serves Hermaeus Mora. Their names are on this UESP page: link.

When I named the dremora from the Sanguine Rose (Krethuzet) I looked up Egyptian names for inspiration, since some of them sound Kyn-ish to me.

I found a lot of female Egyptian names ending in -titi that seemed to suit her, somehow.

But she might end up as Zahra (meaning flower) if I don't use that for an Orc first.

Hey writers! I have a problem. I find myself facing this small challenge . . .

One of the stories I am writing is completely in first person, and unlike the other stories it only has one point of view character. I have several chapters written that I haven't posted, but there is one chapter where I cannot offer the point of view of the character due to certain cirscumstances revolving around her. Would it be safe to offer one or two chapters in the point of view of another person? Or would that break the flow of the entire story being narrated by the protagonist?

Thanks in advance!

As long as you make it clear that the POV has been changed, I don't see a problem. Especially as a single-viewpoint narrative has no easy way to show what the narrator doesn't know...

So starting off with "What (narrator) doesn't know, but I do, is that ..." would work fine. Or anything like that.

I agree. When you do change perspective, I'd urge following a couple wise SubRosa rules:
- Make it crystal clear whose perspective the scene is in.
- Make the results worth the significant change in perspective.
- Don't bounce around among perspectives - stick with one for at least a full scene.

I am rather welded to a fairly strict first person view as you know. I have actually grown to enjoy the 'mystery' created by the fact that the reader doesn't know anything more than the primary character knows. It is a different way of providing suspense and mystery that I have grown to rather like.

Overall though, it is your story and it sounds like you think a PoV change is important to get your objectives across - so I'd say do it. Just try to follow the guidelines above and, more importantly, have fun!

I followed Sage SubRosa's advice too, and do agree with her = think it is best in separate chapters; but if you have to do it in the same chapter put a heading in bold to give the reader the heads up; and don't change POV back and forth in one chapter; if you change it once in the chapter, then end that chapter with the change and don't change back till the next chapter. (and once again, give the bolded heading to let the reader know whose POV they are hearing from now).

Right. I'll take that into consideration. The issue of course was just changing point of view from the middle of the story when it was being narrated by a single character. This works well, too.

Thanks Ghastly.

Hmm. The three I know of.

You know you make a fine point there. I suppose I'll have to be creative if I am to stick with the first person in that particular chapter. Thanks Acadian.


I wasn't considering using two points of views in one chapter. Only one. The story has always been through Vera's point of view. Its her seeing the world. To change it to some random character would seem out of place. I was just curious on it hehe. But thanks again for the advice. I'll see what I can cook up with this.

Thanks mALX.

Old mentors and veteran ones! This young firebrand doth haveth a question! When posting chapters, how many is that perfect balance between quantity and quality? I'm starting to think that 3k words per chapter is just a long butt read for the audience and I was thinking on cutting it up to 1.5k per post. But then I thought 1.5k would be too short and I'm currently losing my mind right now and what's that pink elephant doing on the ceiling?

Anyway, what's just enough word count per chapter to keep people seated and reading?

I had the same problem a while ago, and (with help from Acadian and Grits) settled on 1000 to 1500 words per chapter for 1 chapter a week. If you post more frequently then you'll want less words, and vice versa.

I believe it was known as the Watusi. Or at least that's what my pink elephants did. Hippos are more into classical ballet.

I do about the 1500 weekly thing, too. My actual measure is three screen-fulls in Wordpad, but that depends on window size, so it's a totally inaccurate estimate. It just seems to work, though.

Do NOT post 200,000 words once a year, or like mirocu, five words every ten seconds.

Well said and I agree entirely. Forum fiction posting is its own unique style and, over time, I've come to believe that much over 1500 words per episode invites skimming and reduces the impact of all your hard work. You don't have to 'finish' each episode by bringing something to a conclusion - that is why we write continuing stories and often include an 'In our previous episode...' summary to warm readers up at the beginning of our next update. Speaking of next updates, once a week allows enough time for your readers to easily fit it in their schedule but is frequent enough to stay current.

Good luck Uleni and have fun!

:3

Thank you, Danke, ありがとうございます

*thumbs up*

My path is clear now and all that remains is to walk.

I am reading a Star Wars novel where the planet the characters on suffers from frequent earthquakes. Of course the planet they are on is not Earth, nor is any other in that particular galaxy. So the author refers to them 'groundquakes'. I thought that was an excellent term, and one that writers in TES fiction could appropriate.

That is a great term. Works well with ES. Though I have seen the word "earth" in ES.

Excellent observation, SubRosa. Each of us have our own fiction 'stylebook' (you taught me that) and mine strictly forbids any use of the term earth in my TES fiction. Groundquakes is an excellent alternative to Nirnquakes.

When referring to soil, I stay with terms like soil, dirt, rich loam etc instead of using the term earth to refer to dirt.

Things like 'What on earth Nirn were you thinking?!?' are easy and fun to work with.

I'll honestly admit that I've never been fussed about using the term "earth" in reference to the ground even when the planet is called something else - I've always felt it more likely that the former use gave rise to the latter, and that it might be in place even with the world being called Nirn. But everyone has their own limits for these things (ask me about my amateur fantasy linguistics in Tolkien fanfic some time...) and I can see why you'd prefer to avoid the term. "Groundquake" is definitely a natural-sounding alternative!

I have seen it used in dialogue in TES games too; and it was kind of jolting at first. I mean technically it means soil; and maybe our planet was named that afterward because it is made up of a soil covering, who knows. But it did feel to me kind of like one of the writers/developers slipped up on it when I saw/heard it in game.

I see your point, and it is interesting to consider; the Earth as the name of the Planet would have been derived from the earth, of which the portions inhabited by us were made. It's a very literal thing but I don't think it's a problem when applied to other planets - (which is basically what Nirn is) - because a thing - like a chair, or a door.

I agree that Nirnians wouldn't necessarily call it that but I would suggest that a translation of their word for it, in a Thesaurus, would include the word "earth" as the thing that the ground is composed of - earthy ground, muddy ground...
Us applying the meaning "Earth" and thinking it's jarring is because we live on a planet called that because the bit we live on is made of that, and we're quite literal in how we name things, as I said earlier... (I reckon) - you know, the earth on Mars is still earth, even if it's not "Earth"...

personally I don't think it's too much of a problem as long as it's clear what the context is, but I do agree that "groundquake" is quite cool.

Hey guys. Not sure if I asked this before but how many of you guys actually write an entire story before posting t here? And how many of you write and post as you go along?

Buffy's Book 1 was write as I go. Toward the end I was able to get a couple dozen episodes ahead. I learned a great deal from SubRosa during that time - including a very fun collaboration that we did together. One thing I noted and admired from her was the idea of fully drafting a book before even beginning to post it. I did indeed adapt this from her after Book 1. Buffy's book of short stories only began posting a story when it was fully drafted. Book 2, likewise, was fully drafted before I even announced it.

I find fully drafting a book before publicly committing to posting it works better for me for the following reasons:
- I find it more relaxing. No worries about 'producing' when the whole book is already drafted.
- I can focus my efforts on refining, fine tuning and editing during the lengthy posting process.
- By knowing where the book is going, I can ensure that all the bits and pieces flow toward my intended 'ending'.

I used to write several chapters at a time, and while posting them start writing the next clump of chapters. I never did a full book first, because then if I got a bad critique and needed to rewrite = not that much to fix.

Don't ask me. I can't write a story without creating it as a mod first.

My gosh, never would I write an entire story first. I'm too disorganized. Good question though.

I always write as I go. With some characters, like Kahreem (my Redguard thief) I'd actually write as I'm gaming, and post straight here to Chorrol as I'm gaming & writing. I do it this way because I was able to capture the moment better, especially humor-wise. I also would write in present tense most of the time with him.

With most of my other characters, I'll write after the gaming is done, but I'll write to Notepad instead of straight into the forums. And then I'll let it sit a few days before I go back and edit. These sorts of stories are generally told in the past tense.

Well when I originally wrote Jak's story it was on the Bethesda forums and it was in mini updates every week or so, so I did it as I went. then I brought the story to this forum and turned it into chapters, but the story itself was already written. And I must say I enjoyed that much more, because then I didn't have the pressure of having to write a chapter or part of the story every week.

And if you think about it, that means that I do write the whole thing first. Not just the story the way I want it to go, but also the ways other people could play it. Sometimes that gives me new ideas, and the story gets written twice, taking different paths. I've done that with Kothet and Clark making opposite choices - each with good reason, although those were in vanilla quests, not my own.

You only need an outline with the important events, but some things just have to be planned in advance, like finding all the stones of Barenziah in Clark's story. I had to figure out who'd find them and in what order, or I could have had him go through a location which someone else was supposed to have cleared.