I'm posting this to sort of show how I'm struggling through a bit o' writer's block. The following is writing/idea regurgitation for an essay I'm doing to meet a requirement for picking up my Master's degree. It takes the form of the travel or "on the road" essay, but also I think serves as a sort of meditation upon the big spaces and big changes going on in the Rocky Mountain region, big sky country. It centers around a trip from Lander, Wyoming to Missoula, Montana on 4th of July weekend, 2008. Comments/questions/suggestions are encouraged.




Road weary and bleary-eyed I pull off of the state highway at a rest stop somewhere west of Rexburg, in the high sagebrush desert. I park in the dimmest spot I can find, force the driver’s seat into a reclining position, and pull out my sleeping bag, greasy with sweat and farts and near non-stop use. It is 1 A.M. and I have been up for 18 hours—going through some kind of hell just to make Fourth of July in Missoula.

Friday of Fourth of July weekend and I’m aching to get the hell out of Wyoming, to be anywhere but stuck on the roadside an hour outside of Lander, on the wrong side of South Pass. A problem with the fuel pump, and then some, on the U.S. government Chevy Suburban that my co-workers and I have started to call the Death Trap. We have places to go,


I can’t sit still

Chronology:

Get back to [insert bad word ending in -ing] Lander (finally):
broken speedometer on the tow truck
baby on board
stuck on South Pass
Share soda with Michael

The way out in Wyoming:
Wind River Indian reservation
Ft. Washakie – Native American Art dealer, “Ancient Ways”
Crowheart and its gas station
Mountains on my left, Gannett, Wolverine
Along the Wind River
Dubois
Togwotee Pass – emerge from the shell of metal and plastic, piss
Highway 26
Moran Junction and through Teton National Park
Moose and elk throwing themselves in front of my car
Jackson- want to see people through something other than my windshield
Stop at Wendy’s
Filled with self-doubt

Out from Jackson and over the pass:
Crossing the Snake but can’t see a damn thing
Up and over the pass, only headlights and signs telling me to slow down
Taking note of campgrounds on the way (Expand to discuss my extra-legal camping habits?)

Idaho:
Victor- stop and get gas @ $4.20 gallon. Lucky I get 30 mpg. Across the street from the Emporium w/its malt shop
Driggs- big damn houses, trail work in the mountains w/”THC Tuesday”? Probably leave out the THC, doesn’t add up to much
Series of small towns I don’t know well, on to skirting Rexburg, missing Idaho Falls entirely (thankfully)
Stop for sleep somewhere short of Mud Lake

After reading this thread, I've come to conclusion that my writing method is rather odd.

When most people seem to have a rough idea of how the story goes, I just think of a beginning and a climax, and leave blank space in between for stuff to happen.

For example, in my current project, Grey Knight, I had the beginning 2 chapters as an idea (space marine fights daemons, gets dragged into warp), and the climax (massive siege of the Imperial city). Between these, it's just filled as I write.

It's not that strange, Bean. I do that too. Except I usually get a random idea for something smack in the middle and I'll record it so I don't forget it. I have a whole three pages of random stuff on Word.

Yeah, I don't think your method is all that strange. The Hammerfell story I'm working on right now is in a similar situation. I know (more or less) how I'm ending it, and I have a chunk of the beginning written, but all the stuff in the middle is uncertain.

Current progress on my stuff above:
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Road weary and bleary-eyed I pull off of the state highway at a rest stop somewhere west of Rexburg, in the high sagebrush desert. I park in the dimmest spot I can find, force the driver’s seat into a reclining position, and pull out my sleeping bag, greasy with sweat and farts and near non-stop use. It is 1 A.M. and I have been up for 18 hours—going through some kind of hell just to make Fourth of July in Missoula.

I’ve been aching to get the hell out of Wyoming, land of the sun-baked skull, the suicidal jackrabbit, the sulfur stinking oil wells, and the starvation-crazed mosquito. The land where the government-issued Chevy Suburban conks out sixty miles short of Lander on Friday the [freaking] third of July, when all are desperate to be anywhere but stuck on South Pass watching cheat grass cure in the sun as traffic blasts by.

I’m three hours late getting out of Lander. What does that mean? It means, even in the deliriously long days of summer, that I will reach Jackson well after dark. Jackson is only real population center on this night’s itinerary (in these parts a permanent population of 9000-plus is plenty big) and my route leaves me no choice but drive right through the heart of a tourist town in high vacation season. Complicating this trouble is the fact that I’ve never before been to Jackson—I don’t know the streets.
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1st graph and the rest don't flow temporally, but that's fixable later. I guess I'm giving a window on how I'm breaking my creative drought.

More progress. Why am I clogging the thread with this? It's a way of keeping motivated, I guess, and measuring my progress. Got to have goals of some sort.
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Road weary and bleary-eyed I pull off of the state highway at a rest stop somewhere west of Rexburg, in the high sagebrush desert. I park in the dimmest spot I can find, force the driver’s seat into a reclining position, and pull out my sleeping bag, greasy with sweat and farts and near non-stop use. It is 1 A.M. and I have been up for 18 hours—going through some kind of hell just to make Fourth of July in Missoula.

I’ve been aching to get the hell out of Wyoming, land of the sun-baked skull, the suicidal jackrabbit, the sulfur stinking oil well, and the starvation-crazed mosquito. The land where the government-issued Chevy Suburban conks out sixty miles short of Lander on Friday the [freaking] third of July, when all are desperate to be anywhere but stuck on South Pass watching cheat grass cure in the sun as traffic blasts by.

I’m three hours late getting out of Lander. What does that mean? It means, even in the deliriously long days of summer, that I will reach Jackson well after dark. Jackson is only real population center on this night’s itinerary (in these parts a permanent population of 9000 is plenty big) and my route leaves me no choice but drive right through the heart of a tourist town in high vacation season. Complicating this trouble is the fact that I’ve never before been to Jackson—I don’t know the streets.

But all that comes later. Out of Lander—what a relief!—I can crank the stereo and cruise along at a safe and sane (and blessedly legal) 65 through the western reach of the Wind River reservation, ogling the odd ranch and the more exotic of the billboards, which almost exclusively advertise for trading posts of some ilk. There is one place in Fort Washakie, “Ancient Ways” that makes me think of my friend in Tucson, the one who wants to start his own tribe—never mind that he’s already an Apache. But—like most drivers’ glimpses of these tiny reservation towns—the thought is fleeting. It is difficult to draw out a memory and focus on it, grasp it, when the ever-varying landscape and the golden light of late afternoon assault and entice the eyes with vision after vision. The hills are the color of honey—it hasn’t rained in two weeks—and the high peaks of the west all bear crowns of snow.

Somewhere past Crowheart (population: gas station) the highway descends to the level of the Wind River, winding its way through a red rock canyon reminiscent of Utah. Lovely. The river leads me on to Dubois (population: 991) and beyond, to the high country of Togwotee Pass and the Wind River range, Wyoming’s tallest mountains—more than forty named 13,000 foot peaks. The pass itself rises to nearly 10,000 feet, and when I emerge from my shell of GM metal and plastic to walk on my own two legs, feed some mosquitoes, and piss, the air is marvelously cool, an ecstasy utterly denied in my last few weeks of wading through the shadeless sagebrush desert counting cheat grass and Russian thistle.

I also know exactly what Bean is talking about. I'm pretty much in the same boat for my next story. Then again, it's probably going to end up being the longest story I've ever written (assuming it ever gets completed).



By the way, that's some good writing there, canis. It can be pretty damn hard to get something in essay form to be entertaining, and you've certainly managed it.

(Not that I don't love writing "entertaining" essays, of course - I actually liked my Non-Fiction writing course better than my Fiction Writing course).

Well, it is meant to be an entertainment, that's for sure. I'm really going for, eventually, a sort of gonzo vibe with this piece. The trouble, of course, is that my thoughts during all of this were considerably more off-beat than my actions. Wildest thing I did all the weekend was sit barea$$ naked in an ice-cold mountain stream outside of Missoula, in a really, really popular hiking spot. Regrettably (for purposes of a really funny way to end the story) nobody stumbled upon me while I was doing it.

Well...how completely "non-fiction" does it have to be? When I was teaching the narrative in Composition I, I always quoted from the beginning of "The Life and Times of Judge Roy Bean":

"If this isn't the way things happened, it should have been."

In other words, never let facts get in the way of a good story. Or you can even riff off of a "All the things that might have happened" fantasy.



Different discussion- back to process stuff. I am firmly committed to the belief that there is no "right way" to write. (Other than making the effort to get words on the page). I hardly ever "start at the beginning" with any of my writing. For my current story, I had the idea of the character for a long time, and knew that he would go to Solstheim. And I know the ending- I have had that written for a couple of years, now. All I have done since I imagined the character and the ending is to build the bridge that gets him from where he started to where I need him to go....

With first person nonfiction I think embellishment is riskier. I'm trying to maintain pretty high fidelity to the actual events, though I might mix in a bit from the couple other trips I eventually made between Lander and Missoula. But at least that stuff actually happened--I'd just be messing with time slightly.

Here's some more progress on the stuff I've been posting in here. An evolving essay, by Vehk!

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Road weary and bleary-eyed I pull off of the state highway at a rest stop somewhere west of Rexburg, in the high sagebrush desert. I park in the dimmest spot I can find, force the driver’s seat into a reclining position, and pull out my sleeping bag, greasy with sweat and farts and near non-stop use. It is 1 A.M. and I have been up for 18 hours—going through some kind of hell just to make Fourth of July in Missoula.


I’ve been aching to get the hell out of Wyoming, land of the sun-baked skull, the suicidal jackrabbit, the sulfur stinking oil well, and the starvation-crazed mosquito. The land where the government-issued Chevy Suburban conks out sixty miles short of Lander on Friday the [censored] third of July, when all are desperate to be anywhere but stuck on South Pass watching cheat grass cure in the sun as traffic blasts by.

No cell phone coverage, of course, so I flag down a passing motorist. Somewhere down the road she will call in a tow truck from town.

I’m three hours late getting out of Lander. What does that mean? It means, even in the deliriously long days of summer, that I will reach Jackson well after dark. Jackson is only real population center on this night’s itinerary (in these parts a permanent population of 9000 is plenty big) and my route leaves me no choice but drive right through the heart of a tourist town in high vacation season. Complicating this trouble is the fact that I’ve never before been to Jackson—I don’t know the streets.

But all that comes later. Out of Lander—what a relief!—I can crank the stereo in my own (reliable) automobile and cruise along at a safe and sane (and blessedly legal) 65 through the western reach of the Wind River reservation, ogling the odd ranch and the more exotic of the billboards, which almost exclusively advertise for trading posts of some ilk. There is one place in Fort Washakie, “Ancient Ways” that makes me think of my friend in Tucson, the one who wants to start his own tribe—never mind that he’s already part Apache. But—like most drivers’ glimpses of these tiny reservation towns—the thought is fleeting. It is difficult to draw out a memory and focus on it, grasp it, when the ever-varying landscape and the golden light of late afternoon assault and entice the eyes with vision after vision. The hills are the color of honey—it hasn’t rained in two weeks—and the high peaks of the west all bear crowns of snow.

Somewhere past Crowheart (population: gas station) the highway descends to the level of the Wind River, winding its way through a red rock canyon reminiscent of Utah. Lovely. The river leads me on to Dubois (population: 991) and beyond, to the high country of Togwotee Pass and the Wind River range, Wyoming’s tallest mountains—more than forty named 13,000 foot peaks. The pass itself rises to nearly 10,000 feet, and when I emerge from my shell of GM metal and plastic to walk on my own two legs, feed some mosquitoes, and piss, the air is marvelously cool, an ecstasy utterly denied in my last few weeks of wading through the shadeless sagebrush desert counting cheat grass and Russian thistle.

Sunset is drawing near. Even as the highway descends the pass and grows ever more curvaceous I find it difficult to stay focused on the drive. I am presented with the precipitous eastern front of the Teton Range, the iconic Grand Teton (or, simply, The Grand) framed by the wall of subalpine fir and Engelmann spruce on either side of the road. An incurable shutterbug, I am tempted to pull over onto the scant shoulder and set up my tripod in the middle the road—the framing is that good. An insane notion surely—the road is nearly empty but not nearly that empty. After a brief period of agitation—my incurable itch to capture the moment—I pass a combination gas station and RV mega-campground and traffic starts to pick up. The sun flares out in a final explosion of salmon, fuchsia, and orange-hued light as I approach the outer limits of Grand Teton National Park. My pleasant high country jaunt is over.

Night falls. At Moran Junction I turn south onto U.S. 191, thereby avoiding a trip through Yellowstone National Park, its motorized hordes, and its entrance fees. At this point it less than 50 miles to Jackson and I am eager to get there. I’m not particularly in a hurry—whether the drive to Missoula takes nine or ten hours doesn’t really matter much in the scheme of things—but I passed on dinner in Lander. I’m hungry.

There is plenty of meat on the hoof. There are bison, elk, and moose roaming the benchlands above the Snake River and I spend much of the drive through the park in dread, cursing my feeble headlights and the blinding on-coming traffic, waiting for some equally agitated ungulate to step out in front of my car. Thankfully it only happens twice—one moose, one elk—and I am able to slow down in time to avert disaster.

Right now I'm doing something that I've never really done before - write "ahead" in the story. I did it for the epilogue of The Interim, but that isn't as large as the section I'm doing right now.

Like much of the spare-time writing I'm doing right now, it's dedicated to that big, ambitious mega-story that I keep talking about but may or may not see the light of day. And I think it's a damn good segment. The problem is, how am I going to set it up?

I have a vague idea of how to proceed, but I want to put as much work and research into it as I can so I make it the best it can be, and avoid any horrible lore faux pas.

Not really much point to this post, I just felt like making it.

Well this took some finding (why is it in Treydog's section?).

Here's a quandry I've been considering for a while and which doesn't seem to have been mentioned here. What is the ideal length for posting a section of story? Of course it will vary from story to story and from part to part but as a ballpark figure i have no idea. Looking through the fanfic section here I've seen posts of well under 1000 right up to nearly 3000 words in multipart epics. Too long and readers will shy away at the thought of 'reading all that right now' and decide to come back later (and never get round to it), too short and its a bit unsatisfying.

I like to write my stories up before I post them so I can do a 1.5 draft (2nd draft is a bit too grand for just reading through and taking kinks from the story line and deleting a few unessesary scenes) before I put it up. So its not even just how much I wrote that session, and as I'm coming to the end of one and beginning to think about formatting it into a postable form I thought I'd ask. What sort of post length and frequency is best?


EDIT: I'm claiming this isn't threadromancy because this thread still deserves daylight and deals with this topic so another's not needed

As to the first- I guess because I originated it... and there kind of isn't a place for "meta-topic" threads. [shrug]

As to length, I tend to shoot for around 1000 to 1500 words per post. That isn't an especially rigid rule- just what seems "comfortable" to me. And, as I tend to think of my stories as "serial novels," that allows for the dreaded cliff-rac..., um cliff-hanger endings. In truth, like a lot of what I have done, it was rather more accidental than calculated... I tend to run out of steam after 3 or 4 pages and need to sit back and consider. I try to have a few installments prepared in advance, but that doesn't always happen.

In more general terms- "there aren't any rules in a knife fight!" My feeling is that the writer should find a "good stopping place." For some, it is a whole chapter- for others, 500-600 words. Ideally, a post should move the story forward, yet be digestable. Early on, I tried to post every day; in retrospect, probably not a good idea. Esp. as comments seem to have gotten kind of sparse, a schedule of once every 2 or 3 days or maybe even a longer interval might be better.

Regardless, I will anticipate reading your work with great pleasure.

I don't shoot for any fixed number. I just find a good stopping point, and then I stop. I like Trey's thinking about "serial novels", except I'm just about the opposite when it comes to cliff hangers. I like to think that it makes the cliff hangers I do use a little more powerful than they otherwise would be, since there are generally few of them. This was especially true, I think, when I first started writing about Always-He-Lingers-in-the-Sun, my argonian assassin. The series started as one-shots in the Temple of Lore, and many of the subsequent updates tell one story--the stalking and killing of one person or set of persons.

For the forum I tend to write my stories in one burst, with very little editing. In this sense I am coasting on talent--relying on my ability to spin an interesting yarn in interesting language on the fly, while making very few mistakes. (This is also how I went through most of college--I'm basically a slacker, I just happen to be a talented slacker.) As I get older I edit more, take more care, but often times the stuff I labor over lacks the vitality of some of my more hurried work. It's an odd balance--spontaneity v. polish.

It depends on how you feel really. I'd say around 1500-2000 words is a good number - you want something substantial enough to entertain the reader, but not so big so it scares people away. I suppose it also kinds of depends what forum you're on. On one site I had to post it in 500-a-piece chapters cos' over that ran onto two pages!

Still, it's up to you and wherever you feel comfortable, but make sure you can still pick up where you've left off at the end.

Seeing as we have so many new members I thought I might wave the staff of threadromancy and resurrect this one because it's a good thread (and was still at the top of Trey's forum anyway).

I must say I think it would be better placed in the main fanfic forum to be honest, possibly even stickied (or something in a similar vein to it created).

Anyway those who haven't posted here, any interesting bits of writing process?

Looking back over some of the comments, I find I have come to the same conclusion as the dog and Illydoor on post length and frequency.

When I write, I do it a chapter at a time, and let them become as long as they need to be. I do not care about the length then, just that I convey the things I need to. When I go to post however, it is a different story. I try to stick to that length of 1-2k words per post when I can so as to not overwhelm the reader with a wall of text. So I only post one or two scenes of a chapter at at time to keep the posts in that range. Or I break in the middle of scene if there is a good place. Sometimes they run longer if there is just no good spot to do that. I do not want to lose the power of a scene just to keep it under 2k words.

I also try to space out my posts by at least two days apart, so there is time for people to come across each post and read it before the next one. Since any given chapter might be 2, 3, or more posts (my biggest was 6) it also gives me time to start writing the next chapter while I am still posting the previous one.

When it comes to drafts, I typically do four to five drafts. The first draft is the first write through of the chapter from end to end, and takes me several days, sometimes as much as a week, depending on how large the chapter is. I typically write only about 2-3k words a day. It all depends on how inspired I am and how much time I have to waste invest in it. At 15k words, Through A Nightmare Darkly took me a full week to do the first draft. I suspect that compared to some people I am a slow writer. But I also spend a lot of time and effort trying to get the first draft as best as I can. So I will spend five minutes looking for synonyms for a single word rather than leaving that for a later draft.

After that the following drafts are easier. I go through the chapter from end to end again and look for things like continuity and grammar errors. I only do one draft a day, otherwise I miss things. I need fresh eyes to catch little things. I also compare it to my outline to make sure I did not miss any points I wanted to touch on. The 2nd and 3rd drafts typically need the most fixing. After that the 4th draft is usually just nitpicking over word choice and sentence structure. If I can still stand to look at it, the 5th draft is the same.

Speaking of outlines, I do keep an outline, which is often well over six months in advance of my writing. I put down each chapter I have planned, and all of its key events. Typically an outline entry for a chapter is only two or three paragraphs, although some can be much longer. I am not an absolute slave to the outline though. Often when I am writing things come out spontaneously that I add in, or take out. Or I might find a different direction I want to take things. In these cases I just go with the flow, as I have learned to trust my intuition (it always knows better than my conscious mind). Here is an example of an outline entry for an 8,000 word chapter:



Something to note is that the finished version did not contain the part about Pappy recommending the inns, as the natural flow of conversation never got there (Teresa was too busy storming out in tears instead). There is also an very large scene I added to the chapter that is not really in the outline, starting it out.

Yep, agreed.

Eh, outlines, notes, drafts; I have no need for such things. Granted, my writes would probably be better if I used them, but I can't get into them. I am a very chaotic writer. Heck, I'll change a chapter's entire events half-way through to fit with my newest vision of where the stories going.

I rarely write anything down (except the story of course!), and prefere to keep it all in my mind where it can warp and change to suit whatever need I have.

Here's a question: how much research do you do when you're writing TES fiction? I must confess to being something of a lore buff (though not a lore-khan), and like to try to maintain a fair continuity with the known history, geography, and anthropology of Tamriel. I also like to drop the odd Easter egg from the canonical literature.

For example, I am currently using this as a reference. And Julianos knows I like to peruse the TES cartography section.

The best piece of advice that I have ever been given on the mystery of the writing process is to first ignore all of the people who equate the act of writing fiction to the building of a house. Notes, outlines, and character sheets are not blueprints; they are studies, they are rehearsal.

Writing fiction is an act of artistic expression; One that is, hopefully, done for the benefit of an audience. And like singing, or acting, or dancing, or playing an instrument, good fiction should be looked upon as a performance. Read any page of the collected works of Charles Dickens, or Jane Austen, or Mark Twain and you can sense that these great writers consider themselves on stage for the amount of time that they are able to hold your attention. All writers possess a bit of the ham, it is why we do what we do. Embrace that aspect of your personality. Write with abandon!

Check this out:



Tell me that Dickens isn’t showing off! He could have just said it was a foggy night; he could have left the fog on the Essex Marshes and the Kentish Heights. But then we wouldn’t still be talking about him.

So whether you use an outline or not, whether you research heavily or let things fall where they may. There will always be a place for writing that engages the audience the way any good performance piece should. Remember, someone else transcribed Homer into prose. Early audiences heard the Iliad and the Odyssey.

Sorry, got a little off the point of the thread. But, as I said when I introduced myself, I am obsessed with writing and I could talk about it all day.

@Canis216- I try to be "consistent" with the Lore, although I do not research it, and rarely reference it in my work. I do follow the Construction Set closely, and try not to "break" the game too much. That is easier for me, with a narrowly-focused, first person narrative. When I attempt to add "historical touches" they are usually personal rather than global- see for example the story of the hunting party told around the fire.

@Destri- Could not agree more. The only way to be a writer is to write. The only way to find your own style as a writer is to write a lot. And a lot of it will be- ah, not good- in the beginning. But fiction (and even a fair amount of non-fiction) is very much a performance. The "fun" part is finding that balance between completely immersing the reader versus seeming to be obviously saying, "Gee Mom, look how good I'm writing!"

Yes, I love talking about writing or reading or reading about writing or writing about reading....

Since my fc isn't exactly based on the most lore-heavy game, I find myself having to go the IL quite often. Whether it's researcing an et'ada, finding out as much as I can about the Balac-Thurm, ect ect.

I love the Easter Eggs too, and I noticed them in your story in the asides (hilarious way you present them!)

I love to take the Lore and incorporate it, and sometimes (cough, cough) use it to twist a story through, or twist through a story. I spend a lot of time digging in Lore when I write to make sure I am touching on it correctly, but try and put my own spin on it. The facts are there, but the content is always open for interpretation, lol.

Lore is an interesting one. For the basic concept and arc of a story I ignore it (well I don't research so just rely on what I know) becasue my mind is on other things. When it comes to fleshing out on the other hand I read everything I can find. I'm not sure I'd write a story in a very lore heavy setting though just because of the constraints. Like I considered writing something around the time of the battle of Red Mountain but decided against it on the grounds that I'd be forever tiptoeing rounds and stumbing over the lore around it.

With setting like the story I'm currently posting this is less of an issue. A look at the imperial library's map section told me about terrain but beyond that the local culture is about the only defined thing, and that's only so set anyway. Another thing I do is spend time looking at the concept art and screenshots of both cannon and tamriel-rebuilt in an attempt to make my descritpions of places feel like they should.

So I'd say I try to be lore compatable without particularly paying it more attention than that and deliberately avoiding lore heavy areas. As far as writing around a game goes (I have a few thousand words of that somewhere on the harddrive but it's no where near ready to be made yet) I largly ignore the game. I've played them enough to know the places and, though I look at maps and keep names, if it suits that a character is a little different than in game (especially if they're too wishy-washy) then they find themselves changed to suit. I like to deal in what might have been and so take things off in a different direction than the game quests go.

Be like a method actor. Take a while, and actually think how one of your characters would. Throw some of your own experiences in there, too. Don't logically make hypothetical situations, ie: 'what would [insert character's name] do?' Make it so that you can barely tell the difference between your own thoughts and your character's.

Don't think about how your characters think, think as your characters.

It's hard to explain, but when I write anything, whether it's lyrics to a song or a TES fanfic, I take on a new frame of mind on purpose. If I'm writing a sad song, for example, I'll take some time to look at all the bad things going on around me, really focus on them for a while, amplify them a billion-fold, and eventually I'll have the perfect depressing mindset for some sad lyrics. It sounds weird, but you can really play with your own head, just make sure you can re-balance yourself later.

Put yourself in similar situations as your characters. Writing about Suzie who's starving in the desert? Don't eat all day and see how you feel. Describe it. Stomach making noises? Muscles feeling weak? Describe it.

Another thing is to 'steal' techniques from writers you like. For example I really like Cormac McCarthy, so there are a few things I do to recreate what I like about his style: I use few words, but try to pick very strong ones. I use short, choppy sentences that move quickly, but leave impact. I learned to leave out a lot of narrative sections and simply use the characters' own dialogue to tell the reader what I want them to know. I write nothing like Cormac McCarthy, I simply took something that I saw and liked in his books and tried to learn from it.

Awesome ideas!

@ Verlox - I don't know if it would improve your writing or not, how do you improve on perfection? I think sometimes a framework takes the life out of something, the spontaneous feel.

Example: Destri's writing in Interregnum: the reader is drawn, pulled in - it comes to life and grabs you and holds you - I don't know if someone could come across with that kind of inspired writing in a rigid framework, but I could be wrong.

I think it was Picasso who said something to the effect of, "Good artists imitate, great artists steal." I personally like to crib from the writing of Edward Abbey and Tony Hillerman, and also from film (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon--especially the desert scenes and the music--is an influence). If you like it, use it. Do it long enough and well enough and it becomes yours.

And yes, one of my favorite things about lore is being able to riff off of it for humor. I once stole a line from Henry David Thoreau (via Abbey's own riff on his work) and then mixed in a lore reference to what I thought was great effect.



So yeah, I can't say that I rely on lore as a plot device or anything, but it adds depth to the world, and well-placed references to it act to place my characters within that world. With Al I think this is useful because his mindset is fundamentally skeptical and modern. I don't want him to seem too disconnected from Tamrielic culture.

hmm looks like I'm a little late to the party

I usually keep a notebook with me all day, record things I see, funny things I've heard and it works pretty well.

I often work on two word documents at a time, I write the first part and then the one after that, then I review the first and edit it, do the same with the second before going over the first again a third time.
It probably sounds a little to complicated but I find that it works pretty well.

Paying attention to the surrondings is pretty important to me, I often spend a while just creating the scenery/ setting before the actual story. (which many a english teacher has tried to correct me on in the past )

I'm pretty stubborn when it comes to the lore, whenever I'm writing I always have the imperial library and uesp wiki up as seperate windows. Just so I won't accidently piss off user ELDERSCROLLZFAN4LIFE6188!! who will hunt me down for saying that vivec had children xP

so yeah.... that's my 2 cents

Yet again I'm going to commit threadromancy on this to ask on opinions on a couple of topics which are bothering me in the planning for my next write.

The first is on planning. How much to plan? The last ones I wrote were planned utterly before I began them and had notes on everything so I knew what was going to happen before I wrote it (during which somethings changed of course), I'm not sure how this came through but it makes the writing easier having a map to follow. But it's possibly less fun and if things are going to change is it better not to fix them to begin with. Going forth blindly (I'm not really sure where the one I'm planning will go after the first phase of it) is all very well but I always worry it's really compensating for a blind (or more likely denied) spot where things won't come together. Or a weakness in character planning that I don't know what will happen.

Which brings me to the second point - where do people get characters from? I've come up with a couple but they're still cardboard and other than writing with them I can't seem to get them to flesh out and so I don't know exactly what I've got. Does anyone have any tricks?

I sort of had a point or two there... maybe... or I might just be struggling with the initial phases of planning.

I'm a document/report writer. Therefore, I have little experience in writing fiction stuff. But here's what I do for fan fics or just plain writing in general.

First I just wing it or write a very ROUGH version of my story/report. It takes less than 10 minutes to write that. Then I go back and look at any mistakes I've made. Since I use the computer, spelling is no problem but Microsoft Word is annoyingly picky when it comes to grammar. I correct what needs to be corrected and then move on to step two.

If I'm writing reports, I check my information to see if it's up to date or accurate with the newest discoveries. For stories, I write more with lots of details and more parts of the story. It takes roughly 2 hours for reports and 20 minutes for stories.

Then if I'm lazy super busy, I publish it. If I'm not then I go back AGAIN and look to see if a couple lines are right in place. I usually call up my friends and e-mail the draft. They berate me and change a couple things around. All fun and good but most of the time, they just put this.

"Lol...what the [censored] are you doing?"

Then I publish.

1. Planning. Disclaimer: I'm all about the character. Plot. . . er, not so much. Anyway, I tend to do what I call storyboard (sort of rough outlining) pretty far out. I then hold off on fleshing out the prose until I'm in pretty close. That does a couple things that help me. The storyboarding helps me avoid writing myself into a corner or overlooking something, but by not being 'prosed out' yet, encourages me to move pieces around as my ideas evolve. Dunno if that makes sense, but it helps me. 'Course my plotting is pretty simple (most of the time).

2. Character creation. My (one and only) character's nature is the spitting image of my late wife (the first Mrs Acadian). The character herself is the granddaughter we never had. That is why she speaks to me so clearly.

I can’t give you any definitive answer. The needs of the story dictate the form it will take. I can share with you my process in writing Interregnum:

I started with a simple sentence that jumped out at me when reading the lore:

From there I began to extrapolate everything that I felt must have led up to that event. I made copious notes about the leading players, the major events of the timeframe, and the political atmosphere that existed when these events were taking place. From the very beginning it was apparent that the assassination itself would form the climax of the story, but the lore gives us no indication of exactly when that event took place. Since I was eager to explore every aspect of this setting and place in time I decided that framing the story over the course of an entire year would serve my needs best. That meant that the assassination itself wouldn’t occur until somewhere near the end of the year. This gave me ample opportunity to really play with a large cast of characters.

From there I copied out a Tamrielic calendar to give me an idea of which days were considered sacred or profane by the various provinces. This calendar still serves as my outline. For each day that I wanted to explore in the story I gave myself only the most brief and non-specific prompts over the action that was to occur. For example my entry for the 3rd of Morning Star reads:

I had no idea how that was going to occur, or even what it meant in the larger context of the story at the time. One of the great miracles of writing is how much your creative mind will supply if you only have the good sense to get out of the way.

After all that my advice to you is to immerse yourself in the world of your story. Know it to the point where it begins to invade your sleep. You will know when the story is ready to be written. When that happens get out of the way and let your creative mind work. Characters, scenes and descriptions work so much better when they haven’t been withered to death by the author’s best intentions.

I look forward to reading what you come up with.

1- Planning. I plan very far ahead. For the TF, I have outlines going out as far as chapter 42. Then I have some basic ideas for things beyond that. When I outline a chapter, it can be very simple. Sometimes just two paragraphs stating what needs to happen, highlighting important points. The outline helps me keep the plotting tight, and tie things together over multiple chapters.

For example Vilverin started things that did not come to fruition until the last chapter. Teresa's armor was destroyed, so she needed a new set, and got a magic one from Morcant that would be just what she needed during the Daedra attack on the IC. Likewise, she got all that bandit gear which Jensine, Simplicia, and others were able to use in the battle. etc... Without thinking ahead, I would not be able to pull things together like that.

On the other hand I am not completely rigid in my execution. My outlines are just basic ideas. Directions I want to follow. When I actually sit down and write a chapter things often come out that I had not planned on. For example, Teresa having learned to read by Simplicia teaching her with the Black Horse Courier was completely off the cuff. Methredhel's comment about her, Teresa, and Adanrel being a gang is another. Teresa's pining over Dervera Romalen was another thing that was totally unplanned, as was her feelings of loneliness on the road afterward.

Here is an example of my outline for Chapter 11


Note that things came out slightly different. There was never a Spider Daedra. Nor any mention of hearing Martin's voice. Nor making that healing potion for Vols. etc...


2- Characters. It is hard for me to really explain how I do it. I often start with a stereotype, because they are things people can identify with, and then add layers of depth on from there. Volsinius is a good example here. He is your stereotypical male hero. Physically strong and imposing, not showing much emotion or any signs of weakness or vulnerability, an excellent fighter, decisive in action. A staple character in sword/sorcery fiction. I have no doubt that one of the reasons he is so well loved by readers is precisely because he is a character people are so familiar with.

Once I have that basic concept from the stereotype, I start adding layers. First I look at their past and start adding a history. That in turn either changes some of my original ideas, or reinforces them. Back to Vols, he was a hick from Skyrim who went to the IC at 18. He had never seen the big city before, and was just blown away by it. Most especially by a prostitute named Simplicia, who did things to him he never imagined were possible. He fell in love with her, and when she was maimed it destroyed him as much as it did her. Because he could not protect the woman he loved. Because of that he has never allowed himself to love anyone again. He is too afraid of a repeat. So he became a very hard, closed-up person, afraid to feel anything. His only outlets were drink and violence. His violent tendencies increased because it alleviated his feelings of powerlessness over what happened to Simplicia. That is why he was so quick to knock Teresa's teeth out when she was a child. It is also why the other soldiers were so surprised to find out he had a girlfriend (well not really, but it looked that way). He still loves Simplicia too. That is why he took that firebolt in the face for her after all. But he is so tightly wound that he can never tell her.

So he is still a stereotype, but now one with a tremendous amount of backstory, all of which confirm who and what he is. I think that really makes him come alive as a real person, rather than just as the cardboard cutout he started as.

Edit: removed

Planning- I won't have a lot to say about this, as I have tended to follow the Main Quest for each of my stories. That means the structure is somewhat ready-made. I change things as I feel the need- see discussion of characters which follows.

I still write the greater part of my material by hand, in whatever order it occurs to me. For my current story, I had the beginning and ending before anything else. So then the task became a matter of connecting the 2. Still, I keep a general concept in mind of the events that should occur, and an even more general sense of the order in which they will happen. However, I do not outline at all (not that there's anything wrong with people who do); nor do I stick slavishly to the concept with which I began.

Character- this is the heart of any story for me. If you have interesting and appealing characters, the plot can be almost anything- the fun comes in watching the characters work through it.

I am usually able to write about 2 or 3 fully-formed characters for any of my long pieces. Some people- minque, mALX1, Rumpleteasza, SubRosa- have entire populations of living, breathing 3D characters. Part of the reason I have fewer is because I write first-person narrative. Although that has not limited some of the other folks who also write first-person. For me it means, with few exceptions, that everything is seen through the prism of the narrator. And it also means that what we learn about the main character is based on what (s)he says and does.

So the narrator becomes the most important person in my story. Before I put pen to paper, I try to think about who this person is. What are his beliefs, his values, his biases? Since I already know what his world is like (Morrowind, Tamriel, Solstheim), I can begin to think about how he will interact with it. How does he feel about the gods? -the Khajiit? -the elves?

What is his background? Wealthy, poor? What about age? Writing fan-fiction about a game can give you some scope to describe the character's abilities in creative ways. Rather than simply giving a laundry list of skills, you can reveal them as the action dictates.

"Roaring, a troll burst from the brush beside the road. Fortunately, I had a natural affinity for fire spells."

I prefer to have things revealed gradually, rather than getting an "info dump" at the beginning. There are different kinds of suspense- all are based on unanswered questions. So the character can be somewhat of a mystery, without necessarily going all the way to being a "woman in black." It is useful, whenever possible, to fit "reveals" into the narrative, rather than just baldly stating them. For example look at the difference here-

"Juneipurr did not like guards. She thought they were bullies and thieves wearing city colors."

"A guard appeared at the end of the street, and Juneipurr pulled back into a shadowed doorway. She had memories of city guards- none of them good."

Both get the job done- I think the second one is better story-telling.

Last bit of advice- have fun with what you are doing.

ETA- A character's "voice" can also do a great deal for the story. Look at how Khajiit and Argonians speak in-game. Someone could have a character speaking in the Khajiiti fashion-

"Juniepurr is honored to meet you, noble lady. How may this one be of service?"

And go on in that vein for a while before revealing that she is not herself a Khajiit, but a Bosmer who was raised by Khajiit. Therefore, her cultural references and mannerisms are those of her upbringing, rather than her genetics....

Flexibility is key- one of my most succesful creations- Athynae- was only going to have a limited role in the story as I originally conceived it. But she is such a wonderful character that I had to give her more time on stage. And Athlain is less of a spoiled brat than I had planned.

Ideas for characters (for me) come from real life- Trey and Athlain are me, to a greater or lesser extent. They are braver than I, and tougher. Trey is certainly mouthier- he says the things I only think. On the other hand, I know what it is like to want to live up to a father who was respected and admired- even though we got along far better than Athlain does with Trey....

Baria is very much based on Mrs. Treydog- so is Athynae, with a sprinkling of my sister and a few ex-girlfriends....

My most successful characters are the ones that are based on real people- because that basis in reality makes the characters more real, more believable.

Give your main character(s) strengths, but also give them flaws. We may not always like what they do, but we should be able to understand it.

As you are playing the game (if your fiction is game-based), consider how your character will respond to situations- and think about why that might be....

If you are writing more general fiction, you can still "role-play" situations, conversations, etc.

In the specific fan fic I'm currently writing, I'm like Trey - I use the MQ for the plot, so there goes my planning.

In original fiction, though, I start with a scene in my mind (not always a climactic scene, just one that illustrates the main conflict of the story and the interaction between the main characters), then I develop a time line (not an outline) that gets me from the beginning to this scene, then to the end. The timeline is much more vague than an outline, and it gives me a lot more flexibility. That's the extent of my planning. For example, in a story that I wrote years ago, it started with the vision of a woman falling down an elevator shaft in trying to escape. I started asking questions about the scene - who is this woman? why is she falling? from whom was she trying to escape? I ended up with quite a story, and that inspirational scene was the first in a series of escalating climaxes. That's how I 'plan' my stories - they're pretty organic and tend to grow on themselves. Plot is not really my strong point, sad to say.

Now, character development, that's something I really enjoy doing. It starts from the same point as the storyline - a scene that inspires the entire story. In asking these questions about who, what, why, where, and how, I end up with a good sense of my characters and how they interact. In the current fan fiction, as I was playing Oblivion the first time, I asked questions about my PC as she was moving through this world for the first time. Why was she in prison? How did she end up in this situation? What is she going to do to get out of it and put it all behind her? For me, as for many other writers here, it's the character(s) that drives the story.

And like Trey, I avoid info-dumping as well. I like the characters and situations reveal themselves to the reader bit by bit as in real life - I believe the mystery and questions are what keep the reader going. Not just what's going to happen next? but also how is the character going to react? why is the character in this sticky situation? did the character meet that person before? what's the history here? and so on.

And Trey, are we going to see Juneipurr in your fiction sometime?

The question of planning is an interesting one, because I often wonder about that myself. For the most part, I start writing with only a general idea in mind. I focus much more on the characters that I'm introducing, and sometimes I have to write 3-4 chapters before I really know where I'm going with the plot. After that point, I keep a general plot outline in my head (and often several sub-plots as well), but nothing concrete, because I like room to make adjustments and add new ideas as well.

I also often find that the characters themselves will help direct the plot once it gets rolling, so I never commit myself to any one direction or idea prior to having a full grasp on my characters. I truly believe that the characters are the most important part of a story, and so long as I have a firm grasp and understanding of the different personalities that I've created, getting stuck or whatnot is pretty hard. My greatest joy in writing is actually the feeling of fashioning a new character at the beginning of a story. There's something wonderful about designing a new character, and the thing that I find the most difficult and enjoyable in that regard is voice. Deciding how a person will talk in terms of style and diction takes a lot of thought for me.

One aspect that I truly enjoy is adding details to my characters from the very beginning. Sometimes they'll always be seen wearing a certain thing, or some other such quirk. Later in the story, I'll suddenly realize that I can use that detail for something significant, but I often don't realize that until the moment arrives. Before that, the detail is merely seen as something to make the character more realistic and distinct, but you never know where these things will come in handy plot-wise. That's something that I've always enjoyed.

With regards to mine, all the planning I did was that I simply decided to set myself a challenge: Complete the Mage's Guild questline, and nothing but. With a suitable alternate start mod getting the blimmin' MQ out of the way, away I went.

Ra'jirra's voice came from asking where this Khajiit had come from, and his motivations for coming to Cyrodiil, at ruinous expense. General impressions raised by Bethesda's writers and voice actors helped create a loom to weave whole cloth about this unprepossessing framework.

Currently I want to start a new character to launch into the Fighter's Guild quests, except there's a gimmick I associate with the dope that I'm uncertain about because it could dominate other aspects of his personality.

Planning- For me, it depends on who is in the chapter. If it's one with Wrothken, then all I do is follow the quest and ask a few questions: What does the quest need to be completed? Who does it involve and what is their relationship to Wrothken? Does it conflict with his morals? How? What can he do avoid that? Does it bring up a part of his past? Is he so busy that his heartbreak can be momentarily forgotten? Are the people acting too normal? How can I play on their insanity?

If the chapter is set in Kvatch there's a whole new set of questions: Is it Kirsty, Lilitu, or Awour that we're getting to know? What are we learning about them that will show up in later chapters? How are they developing? Where will they be by the end of the chapter?

Once I know the answers, then I begin writing.

Characters- First thing I do when I make a new character, is have a character sheet


Now, a lot of the characters have their looks based on people I know. For example, one of my best friends is very short, with dark brown hair, brown eyes, she's got a beauty mark above her lips, and the lucky duck has perfect, envious curves... Anyone who reads Champion of Madness might recognize Kirsty's looks.

Next is their biography. Why are they the way they are? How did they get to where they are now? Are their parents alive? Do they have siblings? Any romantic relationships? Where did they come from?

Lastly, what's their alignment? Once I figure out the black and white, I add several shades of gray. Then that's it. I've got my character down.

I hereby invoke the spell of Threadnomancy and- bah. I'll get to the point.

Sometimes, like right now, I have problems involving the introduction of the story itself, and the introduction of characters.

For example, I can't introduce Bob without info-dumping you that he's the bloody Incarnate and how he defeated Ur. I plan to tell the audience that he's the Nerevarine in a later chapter, but sometimes I just find myself staring at long, jarring text wall five minutes later. Just look at my newbie story 'The Mourning Stars'.

So, I have problems with introductions and I'n stricken with the disease of info-dumping.

Since Chorrol is home for pro writers, can this not-so humble kid ask you guys for advice? Please?

I have to disagree with you Ureniashtram, 'The Mourning Stars' first chapter was AWESOME !!! It ran 3000 words, which is a little larger than a lot of people like to read, but I enjoyed every bit of it. I am terrible for having chapters so long no one wants to read them, even long time followers of my story - mine usually run between 2000-2200 words.

I would just break it into smaller chapters so readers don't think they are seeing a "wall of text" - your content and writing is great! My fave line was the one about the Emperor sleeping - I may never forget that, and spew every time I think of it, lol.

I'm speaking just in generalities here about doing an early info dump on a character. Not specifically regarding your writing or story at all. In my humble opionion, introducing your lead character is different than introducing a supporting character. In either case, it boils down to limiting info to that which is relevant and pertains to the moment. I'll assume you are talking about introducing a lead character and you are doing so from within his/her perspective.

He is likely not thinking about the facts that (just for example) he is a Nord living in Bruma with blue eyes dressed in sack cloth pants who was chosen by Azura to slay dragons and save the world and.... Rather, he might be thinking about the fact that he is hungry or thirsty or his head hurts from a hangover. I know you fairly soon want to give your readers a 'picture' of enough to hang onto (like name, race, sex and location) regarding your character, but that should be woven into the story.

In this case, your character hears a knock at the door. Upon opening the door, snow flurries surround his visitor who states, "By the Nine, Bob, it's morning and you look like you just got home from Olav's Tap & Tuck. I thought you Skyrim fellows could hold your drink!"

Ah. Now we know the name, race and sex of the character and that we're in Bruma. That is enough for now. The rest can be doled out naturally as events allow via actions, conversations and judicious use of internal dialogue.

Character introduction. That's the fun part of writing, I think. The most common trap most writers fall into is failing to see their characters as real people. Look at yourself. As you go through your day, do you constantly think about yourself like this: I'm eighteen years old, but look sixteen. I'm medium height, with average looks. I dress average - for a modern-day student, that is. But I know things most eighteen-year old students don't know. I can swing a sword, face down a clannfear, and cast a Silence spell with a wide area of effect. I'm the Nerevarine. No one can beat me in a fair match. Of course you don't think of yourself like that. Your mind is on other things.

What I do is imagine that character going about his/her day-to-day business. I start by describing that character's actions, his thoughts, the environment that character is moving through. I hoard personal descriptions and dole it out very frugally.

How do you get to know someone in real life? If you're a student, what happens when you notice another student? Or how does your teacher introduce himself on the first day of class? If you're a working stiff, how does your first day on the job go? Or what happens when someone new starts working in your office/place of employment? When you see someone interesting on the street, what's the first thing you see? Wild hairdo? Crazy tats? Weird clothes? Or maybe it's strange behavior that attracts your attention.

Once you've done the initial introduction, what's next? I introduce bits and pieces of my characters' personalities and histories through action, through conversation (dialogue), and inner thoughts. I build them up slowly, layer by layer. That's how I avoid an info-dump.

Here's how I introduced a character in a story I wrote some time ago:



Right off the bat, we know the protagonist is a woman, who works security for a corporation, and she speaks at least three languages - English, German, and Spanish. There is also a hint of impatience with people who don't pay attention to details, such as this official speaking German to an American/Latin national. Her character is developed pretty much over the next several chapters, as she travels to her destination and her purpose for going there. That's pretty much how I write my characters, as if I'm getting to know them in real life.

Introductions. That's the hard part -where to start? Sometimes I start right in with the action:
That was the first paragraph of a different story I wrote about nine or ten years ago. The story starts with the mission. Character development is going on concurrently with the action, and by the time the mission is finished, we have a sense of who some of these people are.

Other times, I start with something a little more low-key:
This is the story I'm writing for NaNoWriMo (see my post on the General Discussion). I just started it this morning and already I'm nearly halfway toward my daily goal of 2000 words. So here we have two things going on: I've created a setting - it's cold, and they live in a yurt heated by a brazier. Today is going to be a long day. We'll find out why in a few paragraphs. I've also introduced four characters, a woman, her man, and two children. We don't know much about them yet, but we know we're looking at a family unit.

And that's how I work! Do you have a book you absolutely love? Pick it up and look at the first page. Does it grab you right away? Why and how does it do so? Or if you're more a movie person, put your favorite movie in the VCR or DVD player and watch the first five minutes. Ask yourself the same questions. That's how you work on your introductions and character development. It takes practice to read or watch actively, instead of passively. But it's possible to learn from your favorites.

I am not sure how much more I can add that has not already been said. Except to think of the background you work up for your characters and setting as an iceberg. The reader only needs to see the tip of it, so that is all you have to show them to start with. Reveal the rest when the character somehow experiences those things. That way it flows naturally from the story.

For example, in the TF I did not reveal that my main character was a lesbian until chapter 5. I did it then because she saw an attractive woman and reacted. She did not stop to think "Oh, btw. I'm a lesbian." She just saw the other woman and started day dreaming about sleeping with her. The reader could fill in the rest.

Likewise, I did not reveal that she was an archer until chapter 3, when she saw a bow and thought "Hey, I can use that!". Before then when she was talking to the Emperor it did not matter, so there was no point revealing it.

For an example of showing setting information: I always knew that in the TF, there were miles and miles of farmland and villages surrounding all the major cities in Cyrodiil, enough that you would travels for days and see nothing but farms. But I did not show that until my main character was actually walking down the main road outside a city, and all these farms were rolling by.

No words can express my gratitude, really. So I say this to all of you; Thanks!

Now, only thing for me left to do is learn, reflect and (hopefully) create a story that'll encompass my previous ones!

Thanks, yet again! Whoo!

You're welcome! Good luck!

Here is an idea that just came to me. For a good exercise, try writing a protagonist who has amnesia. Linara is doing that here. It is a great way to avoid info-dumping, because the character literally has no info!

Aha! Nice suggestion, dear Sage! Hmm... an amnesiac protagonist.. That's going to be challenge. Thanks, again!