But channler, that's just it, they're not in those age group, its simply because I live in an incredibly progressive (and sadly also me-generation'd) county.

Three of the teachers are over 60, three more are over 50 (or at least 40) and one is in his 20s(possibly the most apolitical one as well), the rest I haven't the faintest.

Most of them are incredibly wise, intelligent people who have been all over the world and though they could teach at any other schools it was important to them to teach alternative thinkers and students who had harder times. The school in the county that is laughed at the most has some of the best teachers because they know how to break barriers and teach to all different types of students.

EDIT: This is the way I say the pledge of allegiance, it used to piss my teachers off when I lived in my old town, a ski-town.

I pledge of allegiance to the world
And every aspect of life included
And to the people
For which they stand
One People
All are bonded
Interdependent,
Equal, Free
And Responsible,
All.

(That what I remember of it, it's sort of hard, we had tyo say it every day in class after 9-11 and I switched it around in protest because I think national barriers are ridiculous and therefore I heavily disagree with the pledge of allegiance)

Hehe, you also live in CA

But yes, I understand.

However, I get really mad when students blindly follow their teachers political veiws. Heh, I remeber in my 9th grade english my teacher was speaking out against the democrats that were bashing bush, and most of the students were like, "Yea! We should burn em all, there all idiots.."

And then, I get into my journalism class, with a liberal teacher, and alot of students from yes, my ninth grade english class and shes like, and I quote, "Bush is a F'n dumb@ss"

Guess what the students exact words were?

Im not saying anything cause im unsure, however shouldn't this be in the Waiting4Oblivion Parliament? Just wondering

I rarely see that. As I said, student with right-wing leanings are much more comfortable at this school than main streem schools even though in the mainstream ones its unacceptable to be badgerish with political opinions. The reason is students with right-wing leanings are encouraged to voice what they think, and the student body doesn't mock what they say because it's disrespectful and heravily frowned upon here, so instead of just being called a dumbass by someone sitting clkear across the room with delivered reasonable opposition.

Some of the curriculum is being called into question though. My history teacher during US history started with the native americans and ended with the 1980s, and did everythin inbetween with less enphases and 1776-1860 since you get that time period in middle school already. He's being told though he has tot each the content standard, which don't include indian history or 1860-1980 history, and most students, including right-wing ones, agree he teaches in an objective way, yet the district is saying he outs a leftist spin on things because he chooses to include the ommitted, it pisses me off.

I personally would love to go to a VERY (even if my school leans more liberal) Liberal school. All because, you can't learn to deal with a problem (not the greatest word there) unless you are at the heart of it. However, I don't think everything the left says is wrong, I really just think their method at approaching it is the problem.

That is why I am doing alot of study on Islam, and the Middle Eastern Culture. I find the Middle East (this is where my teaching/historian side goes crazy with excitement) a place of grand intrigue and so much history and culture just setting there, waiting for eyes to devour it. Islamic culture up untill about the late 19c is my current place of study.. after that the radicalists start coming out. ANd in my opinion, they are destroying their own culture.

Yes i love islamic culture. Saladin (Sala-ah-hadin) was such a great ruler, that centuries after the crusade the french claimed that since he was half Aryan, that he was of direct relation to their former kings. So many of their kings were greater then that of christondom. However i think back then everyone was at fault, and it seemed like many of the christians didn't really believe. Which i find sad since so many died for it, something Jesus would most certainly not want

I am very Nationalistic. I believe the good of the American citizin should be first on our minds. After we can take care of ourr own problems then we should push on.

I'll change my opinion on that once everyone in the world will unite under one banner. However, I fear that I will be long dead before that will happen.

Heres a question that you might want to answer in the other thread...

Is there anything wrong for expressing your love for your country?

Megil- I am a citizen. I just don't like saying it.


Possibly a complex answer, possibly not. I'll get to that at the end of this post.

That's part of it. But not all that important, I know that not everyone shares my worldview, and I have no problem whatsoever with saying "One nation, Under God."

That works for some people, I'm not one of them, unfortunately.

It isn't. That's why I just sit there and move my mouth in motion to the words. (while thinking my own version of the pledge to the flag) I'd put my version up, but it'd probably get me in trouble.

I don't like saying the pledge for a lot of reasons. For one thing, because they (specifically my math teacher, most other people understand that not everyone likes to say it) try to force us to say it, which kinda violates the whole freedom of speach(sp?) thing. For another, I disagree politically with a lot of things the nation has done. Yet another reason is that I don't pledge my allegiance lightly. (except in jest, as in my version of the PoA) If I'm going to pledge my allegiance to this country, that means that I am going to back this country with everything I've got. If I'm going to be saying the PoA, it means that I am 100% loyal to the nation at the moment. It means I'd be willing to help out in anything the country is doing (that I as a person know about at the time of pledging allegiance). I'm not, I don't, I never have, I never will. I'd say I'm about 79% loyal to the country. I don't support everything the country does, and thus, I can't swear allegiance to it, it would violate my code of ethics.

Eh, screw it, I'll put my version up. It isn't that bad. Note: This is my own, personal, version of the pledge of allegiance. It is a joke, it has been a joke since I thought of it. It is not serious, which is why it doesn't violate my principles the way saying the real version might, because this is intended in jest, while the real pledge of allegiance is intended to be serious.

I pledge allegiance to the fags
who run the United States of America,
And to the republic,
in which they sit,
One nation,
under Canada,
with liberty and justice for some.

EDIT:

No, certainly not. It isn't wrong express love for your country, unless you are putting other countries down, or forcing other people to accept your views. And from what I can tell about you, I'd say you probably don't do either.

¿Tengo una pregunta para kindred? (i have a question for kindred) If you're so against the country, why not move to canada? If your family is the same way and all, or if they aren't just ignore politics till you're eighteen and move there. There's no use grumbling about how bad it is here. It's just a suggestion

I'm too young. I'm not so against the country, it just came off that way. I'll try to re-clarify. As for ignoring politics untill I can move, well, that would mean forcing ignorance upon myself, which is something I try not to do(not sure how well it's working ). You're right, though, grumbling does no (or little) good unless it becomes outright protest, which it won't, and even protest doesn't always (or often) help out as much as it's meant to.

Now, for a re-clarification.

Upon re-reading my post, I can see where you're coming from. I was being whiny.

First off, I do love this country, and the ideals that it stands for. This country has done some wonderful things. I excersice my freedom of speach quite often, especially for the purposes of satire, and I do not enjoy having it taken away by anyone, for any reason, even if it is only to force me to say something I may have said anyways.

Next, like I said, I do not and never will pledge my allegiance falsely, unless it is for the purposes of satire. If a pledge is meant to be taken seriously, then I will take it (or not take it) just as seriously. The Pledge of Allegiance is meant to be taken seriously, and implies a serious loyalty to the nation. Untill I absolutely approve of everything the nation does, I will not be able to honestly claim absolute loyalty seriously. I am against certain things that the government (currently the Bush administration, but I'd probably find things to dislike no matter who was the president) has done. For an example, I'm pro-choice, in favor of women being able to get abortions. There are other things as well, but I'm typing this before school, so I'm on a deadline here.

Finally, as for my anti-establishment PoA, well, it was intended as a joke whenI thought of it, and I still use it only for a joke. It isn't intended to be used seriously.

But I believe it was put best by Channler when he said:



It doesn't deserve a lot of effort. I'm not going to say the pledge untill I can say it and mean it. I'm serious about promising my loyalty and allegiance. But I'm not going to try to reform the government over something small like this.

this is deep




it really is

I'll even go further than kindred. I'll admit I'm a socialist, I don't believe in free, private enterprize that has more rights than people, I think enterprize needs to be heavily regulated, I think government should be put back in the community with the central government doing mostly the progressive things like determining environmental policy, human rights, all that stuff, but people should be allowed to run the actual way everything goes on a community level.

I'll go even further, I don't hate Bush, I believe I'm connected to all humans, from Bush to Osama Bin Laden and to Hitler, and I don't hate any of these people, but I think they're radicals who chose murder as their path. I think the current United States government is run by a bunch of fat pigs who run the country like a business and are only interested in what chunk they can take out of it.

I think the country was founded by fat pigs. When the proletariat rose up against England it was because England was trying to enforce a monopoly over them. It was economical oppression, and the people decided to rebel against the rich in general, but a group of rich people decided to use this and say, "Don't raid our houses, we're on your side, we're trying to help you, go raid their houses."

I think this country was founded on deceit, the founding fathers were men only interested in protecting their own assets, so like any other rich people, they simply adjusted their stances. I think it was made prosperous by bloodshed, with ruthless indian murderers going on rampages until all the west was settled.

Furthermore, the good ideals the country was founded on are being completed ignored by those in power. They don't give a crap about privacy, if they did they wouldn't scan emails for subversive language or tap phones without warrants. They don't care about protecting the people from big business, which was an underlying factor in the revolution. Big businesses stomp over the proletariat every single day. It's just horrifying to think that everything has gotten so freaking bad.

So, as a hard-core liberal, people tend to ask me (when I go to places that have these types of people). "If you don't like it you just can get out!" (I know that's not a question but they probably don't know the difference so who cares.)

My answer is this: Why would I take my tail in hand and flee from a problem? I was born here, this is where I make my stand. I can't change the world from Canada. This is a country founded on protest, founded on people who were sick and tired of being oppressed by big-businesses and royal investors who sent their armies to protect the business. This is a country that's progress is based on dissent, that thrives on dissent. Dissent is a sign of a healthy democracy, and if you don't like it, you can get out.

I think everyone should remember that this country(USA) always will walk the middle line. Everyone is allowed to voice their opinion and opinions on the way things should work vary greatly. Every opinion is just as valid and correct as every other persons. People see all the political fighting and think things are so bad here, when in truth that is our biggest strength. It is this openness to both left and right ideals that keep the country from imploding and destroying itself. Too far to the right and you get a Dictatorship or Theocracy and too far to the left brings economic ruin and stagnation.

For me personally.. I am far left and far right on different issues. As far as having to totally agree with what the government is doing to support them.. I hate to tell you it will never happen. They will never agree with one person's opinion on the way things should be run and to be honest I am glad of it.

Neela, i think that is a very good answer. I agree with you very much so. That is our strength and it will eventually improve once laws get so specific that there's nothing left to do.

Personally i really hate government. I wish it was like the old days where kings ruled, i mean sure there were bad kings, but then there were also good kings. There were less arguements that's for sure, and if you didn't like the king, you could rise in revolt, or go to the country over. Because back then there were hardly any allies. It was more free, you didn't have to worry about as much because the government sometimes was not even in your area except on a literal map. If you didn't want to pay taxes you could run into the mountains. No one would hunt you, cause they wouldn't find out. And you could still live your life without all this crap

Personally i don't like any news. Sure they tell you whats going on, but every morning? Thats too much i say. People are more worried now then they were back then because they know so much. Personally i believe ignorance is bliss. Live your life the way you want to, and you shouldnt force anything on anyone. It really doesn't work politically (religiously is different however). I've really never heard of anyone who suddenly saw the light and became a liberal or vise-versa. So i never really got political arguements, except between the people actually making the laws.

I mean take no offense Doomed. But would you moving to canada really effect anything here, besides the ones you love who would miss you?

I never want laws to get that specific. Then, your freedom is gone, and every aspect of your life is controlled. Hell, it's already sstarting. Look at the Patriot Act.



Why hate government? Is is essential. Anaarchy would never work, despite what anyone says. It's like they say; one bad apple can ruin the barrel. And being able to dodge taxes and such only comes from lack of technology, not form of government.



In my opinion, ignorance is just that; ignorance. Just because something is bad, doesn't mean that we should be shielded from it. For example, if my mother died, I would want to know. I wouldn't want people to keep me away from the truth, even if the truth was something I didn't really want to hear. Political discussions are no different than any other argument; you're just showing your point of view, not necessarily changing anyone else's.



He said he wasn't going to go to canada....

I didnt say anarchy, and i said living your life personally. Plus you're doing what i just said, arguing.

I don't quite know what you're getting at when you say 'living your life personally', because I don't see how government stops you from doing so.

You're arguing right here with me. And arguing against government still qualifies as participating in a poilitical discussion.

You do realise im playing devils advocate right?

No, it won't ever happen. But the pledge of allegiance doesn't say anything about, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, unless America becomes an evil nation of undead bovine." There are no conditions in the pledge. Its unconditional. Thus, I can't pledge allegiance to any government, ever. Thus, no reciting the PoA for me. Unless, maybe, if it were run by me, but hell, I wouldn't want to live in a country that had me as a leader.


So are you. Oh, another reason I don't want to move to Canada. Canada has it's own political problems. In fact, I believe their liberal government was recently (as in less than a year ago) was brought under fire by an opposing party (or ALL opposing parties) for being extremely corrupt. Of course, my source of Canadian political news is Digital Purgatory, so I'm not completely sure of all the facts. Rummage through some of the comics there, you'll find the ones I'm talking about.


Doomed-I suppose I can agree with some of what you said. Specifically the points about business, and about government at the local level. And I, too, don't hate Bush, but for a much different reason. I don't hate anybody, (again like you) but not because I feel like I'm connected to them. I don't feel that way, I doubt I ever will. I just have a hard time building up strong emotions. The only emotions that come easily to me are melancholy, pity (a small form of pity, usually coupled with sarcasm and humor), amusement (weak amusement, usually involving laughing at someone), irritation, and minor depression. (as in, enough to stop caring about anything that isn't vital, not enough to cut myself) Anything stronger than those takes is something that doesn't come easily and naturally, thus, I don't hate anything, only minor dislike due to them being a cause of irritation. So, while I agree with your oppinions to a degree, I come to similar oppinions from a different perspective.

Florodine of Hlaalu-
Yes, this is deep. We're up to our heinies in deep things.
And there's no need to hate governement. As Dantrag said, goverment, at some form or another, is essential. Even if it's only small governements like Doomed's (is it just me, or does that sound funny when yoou say it out loud?) idea, they're still necesary. The only way government wouldn't be necesary is if you can find some method of getting rid of all the assholes in the world. (which would likely require a government )
And ignorance is bliss, perhaps. But bliss is too strong for me, I'll take knowledge and the minor depression that comes with it instead. Ignorance may cause one to be happy, but knowledge allows one to survive. And which is the natural goal of most living creatures? (Goth kids excepted) Survival. To survive and flourish, you need to know things about your surroundings. If someone was sneaking into my house to kill me, yes, ignorance would be bliss, and I'd die happy. If I knew that the person was coming, I'd be able to do something about it. Knowledge is important, as long as you remember to take your fair share of bliss along the raod.

No, I didn't, but it's still irrelevant. You argue a point, I argue against it if I don't agree. That's the whole point in being devil's advocate, to make an argument, correct?

Oh yes i know as i was saying i was playing devils advocate to see reactions to it

I agree with dantrag, I have to side with Plato here, the only evil in the world is ignorance, the only good is knowledge.

Now, I know you have your right to opinion, but I must say that when that question comes up in debate, I cringe. If people left the beutiful country that they were born in and believed in for so long every time that the government changed, I don't think America could be the country it aspires to be. America was founded on the freedoms and rights that the people deserved, and if people who are anti-bush left just because of a change of government and gave up the fight, would that make the patriots efforts worthless? I believe that the reason people don't pack up is because they love America and want to stand up for the way it should be.

Just realized, guys; no political discussions in the coffee shop. We should probably move this to the Parliament thread.

And congrats to Lonewolf for his 'promotion'.

Thanks Dantrag

ah you lucky dog (wolf whatever) but yes congratulations

I tried that most my younger life, it's the reason I'm so reclusive this very day. There are few I can stand the presence of and most of them don't live near me anymore (or I don't live near them specificly). The only human contact I do make is "yes" "no" and "go away" and I deplore even going that far.

It has gotten pretty bad though, for the very same reasons I don't often buy things. Not just because I have no money, but that I can't stand talking with the clerk. If they try to talk back I just sort of stare at them in horror and pitifuly try to make a response.

"So... catch that SeaHawks game?"

"I... I don't.. like sports..."

"Really? 's a damn shame. A kid like you should like sports"

At this point I've grown curious

"Why's that?"

"So you don't end up a skinny lil..."

Noticing I'm built like a toothpick the clerk (probably aging from 20-40) slowly tapers off his statement and continues his work.

"That'll be 2.49"

Really? What fun. One thing...don't. If you have a point to share, then by all means share it. Playing "devils advocate" with the intention of provoking argument/responses is fine, but it aint fine in here, as you well know. There are other threads available to do that in, so please feel free to move over to them for that purpose, ok?



Interesting, but to be honest I always liked the quote, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". In other words for those with the knowledge not to use it. And no, I'm not playing "devils advocate"

I wasn't saying I agree with the quote, but I do agree with Plato, blissful ignorance isn't. The best way to be sure you're doing good, and I understand the universe doesn't take sides, but good in a generally social way, is to know as much as you can about everything. But all I measure in life are actions, that's all that really matters, not intent, not point of view, not political opinion. Stalin and Hitler are the same to me, because their actions were the same even if they came from two different places. Bush and Saddam Hussein are the exact same to me, intent means nothing to me. In that sense I agree with that quote.

Whoa, was that recent or was I neglagent to my wolf friend? Congrats, you just accomplished my dream .

Congratz Wolfie

It's recent, just happened on Tuesday


Thanks Fuzzy, and thanks Red too

Well today I've been studying all day because we have a big religion test tomorrow, and I got the newsletter from Foo Fighters new Tour and their not visiting Norway - So me and my friends sent a mail each that they need to reconsider coming here to Norway, it's not healthy for me to wait - And it's quite many mails too

If anyone deserves it, its you. Well, first the guy who first discovered fire, then you.

No, I think you have it wrong. Lonewolf comes before the guy that discorvered fire, but after the guy that invented the sandwich.

Hmm...what about him that invented ....coffee..??? shouldn´t he have some credit?

I guess he comes before LoneWolf too...

coffee is usefull though, I think as gamers we should all know that... But yes Wolfie does come before the guy(or gal) that invented Coffee

You must be crazy. Sure, LonewWolf's name starts with an "L" and ends with a "Wolf", the ultimate cool, but the Maker of Coffee is a title granted to only one admirable, upstanding, and well-loved man/woman. Maker of Coffee > LoneWolf.

Yes, coffee saved my life! Several times, actually, but I suppose saved my life would be a bit of an overstatement. More specifically, coffee allowed me to remain conscious during school. Hmm...maybe I should stop drinking it.


Blasphemy! The guy/gal who invented (or perhaps discovered would be a more appropriate word) coffee is my new god! (or goddess, as the case may be) That's right, hear ye all! I am no longer non-religious! Kindred Spirit is a new convert to the religion of COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, Dantrag has the right idea. Sorry, LoneWolf, you lose by a little bit to the almighty lord, the Maker of Coffee! (S)He is not our creator, merely our savior! Whereas you're just a cool guy. (Note: I'll return to my normal serious self as soon as I can remember what that self is like. Been too long.)

CHEESE!

sorry..

Anyways, coffee is nasty.. My family owns a cafe'/resturaunt and we have much coffee. Nasty nasty stuff.. I like hot chocolate

yes it may be nasty but it is quite helpful. I had it a few time to help wake up...

This is very little known, but the guy who created coffee cannot be before or after Wolfie, as Wolfie invented coffee. You heard me! He also invented coal, sunflowers, lightbulbs and snowglobes. This ofcourse is only seven inventions less than I have. Oh, for those who wonder, I created the Swedish language, Anaheim, Ontario and Nunavut, Europe, trees with names starting with "F", I wrote three fifths of the Declaration of Independence, I was the guy who organized the troops that defended against Napoleon at the battle of Borodino, I invented the submarine (both sandwich and ship) and on top of all that, I'm the guy who molded the Earth from flat to round.

Anyways, how is everyone?

That's an alright resume, I'd give you a job for my dotcom, almost definitely.

I originally discovered King Tut, but it was accredited to other people, so I gave them all AIDS in revenge. (They attributed their deaths to other things since in those days only homosexuals were getting AIDS and they could not bear the shame.)

I also trained Grizzly bears to eat meat; I originally owned the dog that after breeding it with a rat gave birth to the first chihuahua; I shortened Christmas to Xmas; it was my idea to move New Years from January 2nd to January 1st (to stop the confusion); I invented peanut butter (then donated my credit to help the civil rights movement); I stopped the Vietnam War from happening (then doctored a bunch of photos and News stories to make people think it happened so I could catalyze the 60s cultural revolution); I murdered Ronald Reagen; Started the transition from regular Italian pizza to the version we are familiar with in America; It was me who gave the idea to all the Mexicans to illegally emigrate North; I founded News; I gave Socrates all his ideas; I murdered all the Native Americans and blamed it on various people like Christopher Columbus, Andrew Jackson, etcetera; I broke Roosevelt's legs (because he was late on paying back the DeLago family); I suggested to Anne Frank to keep a diary; I started the NASCAR sport in order to divert rednecks from important things; I was the Reindeer Herder that helped Jan Baalsrud to safety and lastly I invented the Rodeo.

And it got me a job as an associate professor at ITT tech.

You lie! I invented sunflowers!

mmkay and this is turning into a big spam fight over? nothing.

lol anyways congratulations lone wolf. Hoping the best and hopefully the stress won't kill ya lol.

Yes congrats wolfie. Oh and doomed, Pizza wasn't created in italy it was created in junky, ugly, industrial, high murder rate, New Haven, Connecticut

Well it depends... Real Italian Pizzia is horrible.. Our American Pizzia is much better.

Go google it.

What if Wolfie is schizophrenic? Then could the guy who invented coffee come before or after him? (deep thought for the day)


You all have very impressive resumes. Maybe you can get me discounts at McDonald's sometime. As for my reume, it's easy, really.

In the beginning I created Heaven and Earth... (And Kindred FTW!!! But I'll highlight a few key points of the rest of my career, in case you weren't feeling depressed enough as it was)
I invented the resume...
I'm so great in bed that I knocked up some Jewish woman 2000 years ago and people are still talking about it...
I invented the number 42...
I invented crappy Hollywood cliches as a joke with my good friend, Allah, so I could show him just how stupid people are...
I invented the hokey pokey.... (and remember, "that's what it's all about!")
I shot the sheriff...
I beat up Chuck Norris, Vin Diesel, and Mr T at the same time, while eating a salad and sipping my margerita, and I didn't spill a drop...
I invented the internet...


Clearly, I win.

I can almost see the next joke that pops up.

As for pizza, I don't know where it comes from, and I don't care. The taste is what matters.

Oghh, too late all good words taken, so I'll just say congratzy wolfie.

*eats a couple of cakes*