Actually it was Igmund, son of the slain Jarl of Markarth, who promised the free worship of Talos to any Nord who helped him in re-taking the Reach. Ulfric simply took up the cause. When the dust had settled and Jarl Igmund was safely perched on the throne of Markarth he discovered that his mouth had written a check that his backside couldn’t cash. The Empire demanded that he rescind the promise of Talos worship because, as flowerbloom said, a second Great War would be the result if an Imperial province was in violation of the White-Gold Concordat.

Ulfric’s part in all of this becomes even more interesting when you realize that he is actually a sleeper agent of the Thalmor. His every action is meant to further destabilize an already weakened Empire. Say what you want about the Thalmor, but their use of Ulfric in this regard has been brilliant. And, again like flowerbloom said, it makes Ulfric an even more sympathetic figure because all evidence suggests that he doesn’t even know the extent to which he is being used.

My understanding (and maybe I read things wrong) was not that Ulfric demanded Talos worship, but rather than it was offered up front by the new Jarl when he was recruiting people to take back the Reach. That was the bait that was dangled in front of Ulfric and the other Nord's eyes.

It was. Then the Aldmeri Dominion caught wind of it and went "Nope!"




Mind=blown

Yes , ulfric is a war hero perhaps...but a bit thick ? I think so...

after much thought i have to conclude that i do think that ulfric is fighting for a genuine motive , but like the best of us if that cause winds up with him as high king ( and , if all went to plan , total leader of skyrim) with immense power and riches...well .... thats just to sweeten the honey

you know what i mean ? i think deep down there is this nord that wants to worship talos and wants the old empire back , but at the same time he is battling with his own greed .

From what i understand ulfric is not a very good leader, however elisif is also bad

i dont think either of them should mantle the posistion of high king/queen , because with the mede line over it does mean that this posisiotn is , regardless of the war , basically gives them total control of skyrim , her immense resources , and her powerful armies.

Ultimatly i think ulfric is a good war time leader whilst elisif is a good peace time leader . I think this was done deliberatly by the devs .

On the pros , ulfric is brave , has a level head for stratagey , he is realistic in what can be done , he has raw battle experiance and skill , lets not forget he can use the voice . He is the born nord war hero risen from tiber septims grave that the nords have been wanting since the begining of the 3rd era .

But : wrong time , wrong place.

on the pros for elisif , she is obviosley a good and succeful business woman , i dont belive the bilge that elisif cannot control her court . Elisif listens to her advisors and her people , and that is a powerful virtue . She does not have any batlle experiance but can deploy level-headiness and logic to make an acceptable decision on matters . Also she is much more diplomatic than ulfric , i think ( like the rest of the empire) she understands the unspoken understanding : we will worship talos in our hearts , but we cannot in the open till this conflict is over and we have won.

The drawbacks of ulfric ? He is a savage racist , either that or he is a very stupid , incompetant man , OR he could be both . His city is in a poor state , his economy is weak, he lacks economic policy and proper level-headness , he makes independant decisions without advice and his narrow -minded beliveing only he can be right . His attempts and trying to form an anti-empire anti-thalmroe resistance movement have failed , hammerfel will not make an alliance with him.

He lacks diploamcy , he is subtly manipulated by the thalmor , some say he is not playing into their hands , but just as many think he is . He refuses to comromise.

In short : he is good at his warfare , but will fail as a long-term leader because the people will lose support in him and ( some already do) grow to despise ihm . He will fail to organise skyrims economy , he wont be able to re-adjust skyrim into a peace time status likly causing economic chaos.

Elisif main weakness is she is over-cautious , being over-cautious is a strength but ultimatly this has resuleted in her being easily-manipulated and weak-willed . she lacks proper loyalty to the empire and real courage ( notice : end of civil war with stormcloak victory) . she is a bit of a puppet - ruler , being un-opinionated is a strength but sometimes you have to make a decisison and somtimes she cant cope under pressure

In short : with a war coming up, and with the empire of the medes in chaos , elisif will sturggle to maintain order , if war comes she will struggle to launch a proper defensive , leaving elisif to be high queen would be highly dangerous in these dark times

ultimatly I want HUMANITY TO SURVIVE , in order to survive right now , the only way i can see it happening is , i hate it but , the only way i can see it happening is if ulfric is in charge , we need a strong wartime leader when the second great war explodes . elisif will not be able to survive and skyrim will suffer terribly for it.

But who knows?

Ulfric is not a sleeper agent for the Thalmor. He was a prisoner of war who was tortured by them. The Thalmor has a dossier on him describing him as an asset because they tortured him for information. The same is true of John McCain, and every other American taken prisoner by the North Vietnamese and tortured. There are similar dossiers on them filed away in some Hanoi office. If Ulfric was a Thalmor agent, his dossier would not say "do not approach him because he will kill you". Nor would it say a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided at all costs.

Ulfric is a savage racist? You must really hate George Washington then. Unlike Ulfric, he owned hundred of people of another race. He also signed a document barring that other race from serving in his army, unlike the Stormcloaks, who are ticked at the Dark Elves precisely because they won't fight for their country.

Ahh rosa ...well this is one of the core debates

Edit : no i think you think we are saying he is a spy for them , no i agree he is not working for them

some think he is being cleverly manipulated by them , or else the thalmor think he is good because he is draining on the empires resources

There is nothing debatable about how it says do not approach Ulfric, or that that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided. If Ulfric was their man, his dossier would not say that. Plain and simple.

I can just as easily say that George Washington was a French sleeper agent, as he was once captured by them. Same with every other American ever captured in any war.

If you really want a sleeper agent, then you need to look no farther than Titus Mede. He is the one who surrendered to the Thalmor after their army was destroyed. He is the one who has knowingly and willingly collaborated with them ever since. The Thalmor would be sunk without him. So long as the Empire is around, and Mede is in power, the Thalmor have their will enforced throughout its territories.

please dont get angry by me , im not sure what you are counting as a "sleeper agent"

What people mean is ulfric is being manipulated INDIRECTLY by the thalmor , it DOES NOT constitute him working / being in contact / being aware of being manipulated by them ....

that is what i mean . its that simple .

A sleeper agent is somebody planted by a specific group into another group that subverts the enemy intentionally. For instance if I'm working for America deep inside of Germany during WW2 by subverting supplies or waiting to assassinate somebody, then I'd be a sleeper agent. You could also be collecting information and sending it back home.

Ulfric is just a useful idiot. He doesn't get that what he's doing is simply helping the Thalmor against the empire. He's definitely not a sleeper agent for the Thalmor in any sense of the phrase.

oww thats intersting! i have never came across the full term before

Sorry for the confusion, ‘Rosa... Kiln. According to the Thalmor Dossier, Ulfric proved his worth as an ‘asset’ (the Thalmor’s word, not mine) as a direct result of the ‘so-called Markarth Incident.’ It further says that Direct contact remains a possibility (under extreme circumstances), but in general the ‘asset’ should be considered ‘dormant’. That is why I considered him a sleeper agent. From now on I'll just say 'dormant asset.'

I know that it says that a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided. It also says (in that same sentence), that ‘indirect aid’ to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed. Not suspended. I don’t think that Ulfric considers himself a pawn of the Thalmor agenda, which is what makes him a sympathetic figure... up to a point.

Now you could make the argument that the Thalmor have also taken credit for ending the Oblivion Crisis and restoring the moons into the night sky. I can’t deny that. Maybe all of this is just another trick on their part. Until we find out otherwise I think the dossier is evidence enough to consider Ulfric a dormant Thalmor asset.

I agree with you in that I don't see Ulfric as a savage racist. Does he hate the dark elves? Maybe. Is he unsympathetic towards the dark elves? Absolutely. Over the course of thousands of years of Tamrielic history these two races have clashed over and over again for territory in Morrowind. I would expect a certain hostility to still exist.


It is my understanding (and I may be wrong) that a sleeper agent doesn't do anything at all when planted into that other group. He/she remains 'dormant', living amongst the enemy, until he/she is activated.

Calling Ulfric a sleeper agent wasn't meant to spark so much debate. The Thalmor consider Ulfric a 'dormant asset', I just threw in the term sleeper agent from there. I don't believe that Ulfric is twirling his godawful mustache wondering how best to serve his Thalmor overlords or anything. Like you say, he just happens to be useful to the Thalmor agenda.

I did find it interesting that the poll was so evenly divided between the empire and the stormcloaks.

I figured there'd be a much larger number of people who supported the empire. Why? Because we've been playing under the empire's rule since the first ES game. They've always been the ones in charge and kind of the glue holding Tamriel together. The empire has forts everywhere protecting citizens and enforcing basic laws.

The Stormcloaks are fighting for a free Skyrim at the cost of damaging the empire as a whole when it is already on shaky ground. It would be like some of the states seceeding during the revolution against the british. Then you take into account that the dunmer and argonians in Ulfric's own city are being oppressed by him and you can kind of get an idea of what kind of rule the province would have under him.

While the Stormcloaks are idealistic, they don't really have a plan. How would they survive without support from all of the other imperial provinces? Think North Korea here. A small nation that cannot provide for all of it's citizens surrounded by other nations that are hostile and won't trade with it.

Skyrim's war for independence may be won but in the end it is only going to hurt Skyrim and the people there.

- what i said

Perhaps some of that might have to do with the point that SubRosa made before. The Empire’s weakened state is almost entirely their own doing. Had they remained steadfast in defeating the Thalmor menace once and for all and stood with Hammerfell (instead of throwing them under the bus) there would have been no civil war in Skyrim because there never would have been a ban on Talos worship. A united Empire (albeit united only in the sense that the human races stand together) would have been enough to stand against the Aldmeri Dominion. Instead the Empire caved into the Thalmor’s demands and signed a treaty whose provisions were almost exactly the same as the ultimatum that they initially refused... precipitating the Great War.

I voted for the Thalmor because at least they know what they want. The Empire is far too vacillating, Hammefell can’t decide between stripes and solids, Skyrim has no plan beyond ‘Skyrim belongs to the Nords!’ Morrowind is gone... and has anyone even heard from High Rock lately?

Chances are they're too mired in their own politics to even care about the Great War or even the Civil War.

Or they could be building their own powerbase and while the Dominion watches the Empire tears itself apart in the CW, they slowly but surely enroach on the turned back of the Thalmor, and then BOOM! Everyone hails the Bretons of High Rock as the saviour mankind as they vanquish the last of the Thalmor in Alinor in a suprise blitzkrieg. Maybe even the Direnni leads them in that scenario. Who knows?

But the empire turned their back on Tamriel! You said it yourself. They are pretty much the main reason that Tamriel is a prosperous continent! But why go down with the empire? If they go down, who says that the rest of Tamriel has to go down with them?! True, the stormcloaks definitely don't seem to have a plan, but at least they're trying to stop the Thalmor from dominating Tamriel! Skyrim is just trying to be independent so they don't have to live under the iron fist of the Thalmor.

Actually all I see the Stormcloaks doing is trying to install Ulfric onto the throne. If they cared at all about trying to stop the Thalmor they would have a lot more to say when Justiciars march Talos worshippers past their own camp!

Ulfric is a demagogue who has warmed to the notion that he should be High King of Skyrim (thanks Galmar! ). This whole thing about defeating Torygg in an honorable duel is just hogwash. He murdered the man... plain and simple. How do I know? Because Torygg had a whole hero-worship thing going with Ulfric, which Ulfric was well aware of. Not only would Torygg have listened to Ulfric’s points about a united Skyrim out from under the Imperial yoke, he more than likely would have endorsed them. Remember, Ulfric didn’t just barge in on the High King, Torygg invited him to Solitude for the discussion. With the High King on his side Ulfric could have named his own title. Thane of Skyrim, perhaps. So let’s see... be the second most powerful man in a Skyrim devoted to the cause of freedom, or become the leader of a rebellion that fractures Skyrim into two factions and sparks civil war. Unless you are a complete idiot (which I half believe Ulfric is, btw), one choice is clearly preferable to the other... unless your goal is to be High King yourself.

Ok but your comment about the random event is game-logistics not lore , also if stormcloaks see thalmor i think they do try to kill them...always lose

Your point is intersting , but its still hotly debated about the duel , i dont think we can give a definitive yes/no on that.

But yes ulfric is a bit thick , nord-thick , thats unfortunate .

A fair point. That was my sarcasm rearing its ugly head.


I think it's only debated by those who still see Ulfric as the hero who 'liberated' Markarth. There is nothing 'honorable' about Ulfric challenging Torygg and then using the thu'um (which Torygg didn't possess, therefore couldn't match) to 'shout him to pieces.' That would be akin to challenging someone to a fist fight then, while they come forward with their guard up, pulling out a bazooka and blasting them to smithereens!

Nicely put!

I'd be most concerned i didnt see the bazooka

Yes and what I'm saying is that Skyrim's independence would be bad for both the Empire and Skyrim. Isolationism just doesn't work as a long term goal when your country can't provide for it's own people. If Skyrim isn't on peaceful grounds with the Empire, they're not going to be trading with all of the other Imperial aligned provinces.

There is no long term plan here and in the end an even weaker Imperial force just increases the chances that the Thalmor would be able to conquer Skyrim. Instead of uniting to fight the Thalmor, Ulfric selfishly throws the region into a civil war without any thought to what happens next and IMO simply uses Talos worship as justification to get nords behind him. What he actually accomplishes is weakening both the Imperial presence in the area and the Stormcloak presence.

Basically Ulfric wants what Dagoth Ur wanted to do in Morrowind, he wants to kick out all the foreigners and isolate the region at any cost. Skyrim for the nords, Morrowind for the Dunmer.

Well said!

IM NOT AN ULFRIC STORMCLOAK FAN!

True, he has some good intentions, but obviously he's a racist b*****d! And what is even with the help of skyrim and the other provinces, what if the empire loses to the Thalmor again? If the empire goes down, so do all of the other provinces, including Skyrim, and the Thalmor gets control of ALL of Tamriel. Skyrim is more likely to be better off on its own.

Honestly, now that I think about it, one way or another, Skyrim won't be able to rebuild itself. The Thalmor could easily wipe out the Stormcloaks and take control of skyrim, and if skyrim stays with the empire, and the Thalmor creams them again, skyrim will still be taken over and unable to recover.