[quote=Channler][quote=Sinder Velvin]Watch this.[/quote]

I hope you all are not implying that the US is 'red people'. And I KNOW your not talking about the the 'yellow people' being the Taliban or Saddam's armys.. If so where are the killing feilds?

Regaurdless though the slaughter of the yellow people was absolutly and horribly wrong, is it not also their own fault that they didn't protect themselves? Thats like me walking into the slums of my town, flashin all my stuff and having some dude mug or kill me. Was it my fault? No, Should it happen? No, Should I walk in the slums with all my bling-bling? No...

War will never end, I hate to tell you all that, but it is the only thing that is true in this world.

Horace
In peace, as a wise man, he should make suitable preparation for war.[/quote]

I'm not saying that that's the conflict of America and Iraq in a nutshell, what I'm saying is that both countries think the other is evil and they themselves are good. In war, usually both sides are "evil" and have a reason to be attacked or to attack, but sometimes they don't weigh up to eachother. Should Jeff kill Andy because Andy threatened Jerry? Think of the Aztecs. We all believe the Spanish were terrible for attacking, raiding and exterminating the Aztecs (which they were) but the Aztecs sacrificed tens of thousands of people (sometimes in a few months).

[quote=Red][quote=Channler][quote=Sinder Velvin]Watch this.[/quote]

I hope you all are not implying that the US is 'red people'. And I KNOW your not talking about the the 'yellow people' being the Taliban or Saddam's armys.. If so where are the killing feilds?

Regaurdless though the slaughter of the yellow people was absolutly and horribly wrong, is it not also their own fault that they didn't protect themselves? Thats like me walking into the slums of my town, flashin all my stuff and having some dude mug or kill me. Was it my fault? No, Should it happen? No, Should I walk in the slums with all my bling-bling? No...

War will never end, I hate to tell you all that, but it is the only thing that is true in this world.

Horace
In peace, as a wise man, he should make suitable preparation for war.[/quote]

I'm not saying that that's the conflict of America and Iraq in a nutshell, what I'm saying is that both countries think the other is evil and they themselves are good. In war, usually both sides are "evil" and have a reason to be attacked or to attack, but sometimes they don't weigh up to eachother. Should Jeff kill Andy because Andy threatened Jerry? Think of the Aztecs. We all believe the Spanish were terrible for attacking, raiding and exterminating the Aztecs (which they were) but the Aztecs sacrificed tens of thousands of people (sometimes in a few months).[/quote]

You exaggerated the aztecs. They sacrificed all their captives, and they mgiht have carried away like 50 from every battle. Mayans, however, simply forced their captives to convert to their religion and culture, and didn't sacrifice anybody, and the spanish slaughtered them as well.

Anyway, it all comes down to perception. Everything was extremely simplified in that thing, not personifying any real conflicts, just showing a bunch of mindless drones murdering a bunch of innocent fools. Ina ctuality, the spaniards perception was that they were catholic and therefore it was not a sin to murder the heathens. They lacked perception. The best cure for a racist is to stick him in the middle of the culture of the race he dislikes, and force him to live among them and solcialize with them if he plans to survive.

Americans perceive Iraqi terrorists as mindless malicious killers. The terrorists being fought are people surrounded by dearh and war, and heavily oppressed. They feel heavy grief, and if you know how it feels to lose someone you can imagine yourself in their position. From there, they are told that America is to blame. America shares responsibility, but it is not absolute as their superiors have them to believe. Train them a little, clear their mind, and you have a killing machine ready to commit terror. When a people is oppressed enough, and has no means to fight back in unision, and in sight, they meet in secret, and find other means. Terrorism will exist as long as war exists. "You cannot win a war more than you can win an Earthquake." - Jeanette Rankin, a republican.

PS: No lonewolf, you did not invent a word.

[quote=DoomedOne]
Americans perceive Iraqi terrorists as mindless malicious killers. .[/quote]

So true. These people are nice and helpful when you need assistance. Just yesterday I taught a young girl how to play checkers. People praise us and love us. The things you see on TV are true but they usally don't cover the whole picture.

Ihave atleast 30 people a day come to our office and give us gifts and thank us for helping them. Wether its building a new school or like Isaid before, teaching children how to play a game they are very grateful.

Some however are not grateful for our assitance. And those are the people you see on TV all the time saying, "We hate America!" But the truth is based on recent polls here, 20% of the population in Bagdad is against us being here, 67% are happy we are here, The rest are glad for our help but wish us to leave.

Thats what really happens, From a perspective of someone who is actually over there.

Now that the trouble is over the soldiers are basically a necessity. As much as I dsigaree on them going over there in the first place it's pretty much required at this point.

[quote=jonajosa][quote=DoomedOne]
Americans perceive Iraqi terrorists as mindless malicious killers. .[/quote]

So true. These people are nice and helpful when you need assistance. Just yesterday I taught a young girl how to play checkers. People praise us and love us. The things you see on TV are true but they usally don't cover the whole picture.

Ihave atleast 30 people a day come to our office and give us gifts and thank us for helping them. Wether its building a new school or like Isaid before, teaching children how to play a game they are very grateful.

Some however are not grateful for our assitance. And those are the people you see on TV all the time saying, "We hate America!" But the truth is based on recent polls here, 20% of the population in Bagdad is against us being here, 67% are happy we are here, The rest are glad for our help but wish us to leave.

Thats what really happens, From a perspective of someone who is actually over there.[/quote]

I´m glad to hear that from the very spot because it´s quite another story on tv...even here in sweden.....i assure you

minque sweden if one of more tolerant countries in the world, and yes good things are happening in Iraq as well as the rest of the world but news stations need to try and gives news, and frankly as happy as some people are there are still plenty of insurgients killing plenty of people. so that's the news everyone is getting, from a country as liberal as Holland to as conservative and Israel.

oh yes i believe so.....it´s just that it worries me a bit, i just don´t like killings no matter if it´s americans or innocent iraqis.......so i think it´s very interesting to hear what jona is telling us,,,because he´s there, he sees it with his own eyes and ...well that´s credability.....for me

Ok, lets just get this out in the open... What you see on TV is most definatly not the whole truth or even the truth at all. Anyone here in america rember the Newsweek thing?

I have talked to numerous soldiers that have come back from Iraq. From PFC's to NCO, and 1 officer. Not 1 of them, even the ******* that is my brother (who was over in Iraq), said they had any urge to Go Kill Them Some Iraqi's!

I love it how AMERICANS get on the TV and say how bad we are, that were an evil country. I don't care if you don't support the war (after all its america and we can have our opinions) but what I absolutly hate is the lack of care these people show for our soldiers.

Ok heres something I've been thinking of for a while, and it sorta goes along with the whole Iraqi Conflict

Compare the Attitude of the Public on War from Pre Korea (The Korean War and Back) to Post Korea (After Korea until Today)

I'll elaborate if anyone is confused

channler, I don't remember the newsweek thing, and no one has called american an evil country who lives in America. I don't think America is evil, I think it's in distress. Also, I've talked to numerous Iraqi veterans who have gone from apathetic about politicians to incredibly anti-bush upon their return. It depends on what experience you get over there. They were not raised liberals, many were raised in small rural towns. They went from a completely unbiased view to a completely left-wing view by being in the front-line. Those aren't rare cases either, that''s dozens of people that I alone have talked to.

About Korea, I never paid much attention to the Korean conflict aside from watching MASH.

Hmm..on this Iraq-amreica subject, i honestly don't think the war should have even started. Have there been weapons of mass destruction? Yes, Saddam was bad, but aren't more people dying now that he's no longer in power? (meaning, some people that support US occupation in Iraq are often killed)

However, now that we are there, we should finish the job and do it right.

anyone read All Quiet on the Western Front ? I like the idea that Muller had (I think it was muller anyways)...why don't the world leaders fight amonst themselves rather than putting their nations' people on the front lines? Or, even better yet, TALK IT OUT! OMG! SO HARD! TOO MATURE FOR US TO HANDLE!

I do support our troops. I understand that they have a hard time, and it's not their fault that they're there (this rule has quite a few exceptions)

btw, that video was pretty powerful.

Dantrag the only prob I have with what you said was that

[quote=Dantrag]Yes, Saddam was bad, but aren't more people dying now that he's no longer in power? (meaning, some people that support US occupation in Iraq are often killed)[/quote]

More people die daily in car crashes in the US alone then people in Iraq do daily..

Crazy I know

Funny how you believe that the Flash movie is about what's going on in Iraq.

How is it funny? I never believed it was but was making sure that you all didn't.. Or rather questoning you to see if you did think it was the US/Iraq war.


Honestly I find it a bad representation of conflict in general. Unless you go to some hindu temple where they believe that you wouldn't get to heaven, nirvana, whatever, if you fight some one, maybe then you'd find a an easy target as the yellow people...

I'm sorry if I come out as militant, but I firmly believe that if you don't work to protect yourself, then maybe your just as well off being involved in the mess you are in. And that goes for the current civil situation of america right now too, with welfare and all.

Heh, don't have to work and you get money! Wheres the motovation, the strive for something better?

Channler, there used to be a time, when welfare, social security, and disability came about, where everyone sort of believed we're all in the same boat. These days we're not, some are in yachts, some get lttle canoes and some get little cardboard boxes.

Welfare did not come about so people could be lazy, it started as a means to help those down on their luck and support them while they get back on their feet. Social Securty and disability work the same way, it was a socialistic ideal that america is all one tribe and when one falls the others shift their weight a little to help. That idea has vanished, and with it went welfare.

[quote=Channler]How is it funny? I never believed it was but was making sure that you all didn't.. Or rather questoning you to see if you did think it was the US/Iraq war.


Honestly I find it a bad representation of conflict in general. Unless you go to some hindu temple where they believe that you wouldn't get to heaven, nirvana, whatever, if you fight some one, maybe then you'd find a an easy target as the yellow people...

I'm sorry if I come out as militant, but I firmly believe that if you don't work to protect yourself, then maybe your just as well off being involved in the mess you are in. And that goes for the current civil situation of america right now too, with welfare and all.

Heh, don't have to work and you get money! Wheres the motovation, the strive for something better?[/quote]

You havent read much on Hinduism have you.

[quote=DoomedOne][quote=Red][quote=Channler][quote=Sinder Velvin]Watch this.[/quote]

I hope you all are not implying that the US is 'red people'. And I KNOW your not talking about the the 'yellow people' being the Taliban or Saddam's armys.. If so where are the killing feilds?

Regaurdless though the slaughter of the yellow people was absolutly and horribly wrong, is it not also their own fault that they didn't protect themselves? Thats like me walking into the slums of my town, flashin all my stuff and having some dude mug or kill me. Was it my fault? No, Should it happen? No, Should I walk in the slums with all my bling-bling? No...

War will never end, I hate to tell you all that, but it is the only thing that is true in this world.

Horace
In peace, as a wise man, he should make suitable preparation for war.[/quote]

I'm not saying that that's the conflict of America and Iraq in a nutshell, what I'm saying is that both countries think the other is evil and they themselves are good. In war, usually both sides are "evil" and have a reason to be attacked or to attack, but sometimes they don't weigh up to eachother. Should Jeff kill Andy because Andy threatened Jerry? Think of the Aztecs. We all believe the Spanish were terrible for attacking, raiding and exterminating the Aztecs (which they were) but the Aztecs sacrificed tens of thousands of people (sometimes in a few months).[/quote]

You exaggerated the aztecs. They sacrificed all their captives, and they mgiht have carried away like 50 from every battle. Mayans, however, simply forced their captives to convert to their religion and culture, and didn't sacrifice anybody, and the spanish slaughtered them as well.

Anyway, it all comes down to perception. Everything was extremely simplified in that thing, not personifying any real conflicts, just showing a bunch of mindless drones murdering a bunch of innocent fools. Ina ctuality, the spaniards perception was that they were catholic and therefore it was not a sin to murder the heathens. They lacked perception. The best cure for a racist is to stick him in the middle of the culture of the race he dislikes, and force him to live among them and solcialize with them if he plans to survive.

Americans perceive Iraqi terrorists as mindless malicious killers. The terrorists being fought are people surrounded by dearh and war, and heavily oppressed. They feel heavy grief, and if you know how it feels to lose someone you can imagine yourself in their position. From there, they are told that America is to blame. America shares responsibility, but it is not absolute as their superiors have them to believe. Train them a little, clear their mind, and you have a killing machine ready to commit terror. When a people is oppressed enough, and has no means to fight back in unision, and in sight, they meet in secret, and find other means. Terrorism will exist as long as war exists. "You cannot win a war more than you can win an Earthquake." - Jeanette Rankin, a republican.

PS: No lonewolf, you did not invent a word.[/quote]

Sorry for not posting this ages ago but you have to admit the legends that
the aztecs built walls and houses of gold had nothing to do with the slaughter. Actually, I believe that Cortez (the spanish man who lead the slaughter) didn't care one bit that they were Cathloc. He cared so much of the gold, hundreds of spaniards died shipping gold to spain. When the Aztecs gave him gifts of finely made feather shirts and statues, he ignored them and looked for more gold. This is what I believe is part of most wars. Back drops. Hitler hated many differant races, so he said they were taking their money. Stalin had more than 5 million people killed because they were spies.

[quote=DoomedOne]That idea has vanished, and with it went welfare.[/quote]

What country do you live in?

Welfare is a very much alive idea and practice. Here ALONE in my school district half of the kids in my school's parents ARE on welfare. Not only that they are single moms who had 6 kids so their welfare check increased everymonth. AND THEN sends the kids to live with their grandparents!!! Absurd, yet it happens and you say welfare is no more?

Gamer10: I'm sorry I won't even bother to argue with you being that you obviously didn't understand what I was implying...

[quote=Channler]Dantrag the only prob I have with what you said was that

[quote=Dantrag]Yes, Saddam was bad, but aren't more people dying now that he's no longer in power? (meaning, some people that support US occupation in Iraq are often killed)[/quote]

More people die daily in car crashes in the US alone then people in Iraq do daily..

Crazy I know[/quote]


maybe my post should have said, "...Aren't more people dying in Iraq now that he's no longer in power?..."

And accidents are quite different than war, so I don't even see that as any kind of comparison.

edit: thought of something else...

think in proportions. The US has a much larger population than Iraq does...so in numbers, yes more people might die in car accidents, but in proportion to the populations...I'm not so sure.

[quote=Channler]
Honestly I find it a bad representation of conflict in general.[/quote]

That's because it's not a representation of conflict in general. It's a representation of mindless slaughter. Of the atrocities of war.

To me, it doesn't say "this is what wars all are about". To me, it says "sometimes things like this happen".

As for why the yellow people didn't fight back, do you think unarmed villagers could ever defend themselves against trained soldiers?

[quote=Sinder Velvin]As for why the yellow people didn't fight back, do you think unarmed villagers could ever defend themselves against trained soldiers?[/quote]

On that subject, did anyone see the story about how some Chinese villagers tried to defend their land against government thugs when the authorities tried to clear the villagers out to build governement buildings?

Making it's triumphant return from the third page of the forums... the parliament thread!

Since there was a discussion about patriotism in the Coffee Shop thread, I thought maybe we could discuss it here since the coffee shop is in danger of being swamped by *gasp* serious debate.

So, err... discuss

Well, sure if it comes to the point of "Red Dawn" I'd probably fight back with my nifty baseball bat.

Who knows, I might even sing America the Beautiful while being shot into a ditch, of course I'd also be running for my life at the same time.

So no, I wouldn't sing it, mainly because I wouldn't have an opportunity.

Oh and about putting stuff in front of the other, defending your country would be defending (so in other words you automatically think about them) your family and religion because they share the same country as you.

You get my point.

[quote=Channler]It has to do with Canadians and Mexicans too..

I'm not to sure about world events, lets see how this one is taken first and then we'll try a world event..[/quote]

(This is gonna be strange replying to a post from a while ago)

Oh! I have one.

How about the G4's bid for the security council.

Sorry to change the subject so abruptly.

My opinion:

I live in America, so my mind is basically taken over by hugely democratic views.

The way I see it, the whole UN should dissolve this council thingy and have a points chart. The more people in a country the more points it gets to vote with in worldwide decisions. I mean a country like India opting for the security council I view as very justified. How can one-sixth of the world's people not be represented.

But then the smaller countries with low population counts (like Ireland) have almost no say in votes

Well, not to insult you or anything but that's my point. The majority wins where I live. It's nearly flipped around with the current way we have things.

That's totally unfair though. Because the majority will be a few of the countries with high populations, even if twice as many small countries vote against

I see your point. That's what gets me, the US could easily be outvoted then, by India or China.

Though I would still stick with the idea, because India is called the worlds largest democracy because of it's number of people, and hey I love Democracy.

Now don't get mad at me becuase, hey I love Ireland as well.

Wait, the only place out of country that I've been too would be India . . and Italy.

I don't really like that idea gamer... You can't give to much power to country's like China who own like what 1/6th of the worlds population?

We are never going to attain a perfect goverment as long as there are people.. So.. uh.. go die everyone

Anyways about patroitism..

Chumb (sorry cant remeber how to spell your name), they didn't loose their lives just to put up a flag.. That flag represented more then just the fabric that it was made out of. Our flag represents so many trials and difficulty's that we as a country have overcome, maybe not in the best sort of way. The flag is our heritage, its our representation to the world.

So those men didn't die for that flag, they died for the ideals and people that are united behind that flag.

I don't know why I feel the way I do about these things. I just want to see america strong and in the democratic state that it should be. It seems that the american people grow more divided every day. Ok, you believe the war is wrong, please be publicly agaisnt it, but for the love of God support the soldiers that are giving their lives for you.

Heh, I think the media should go die.. They've tainted war forever...

To Dantrag: I agree with Bush's principles more then Kerry's, and if I had been a year older I would of voted for Bush. But, I don't like how GW, didn't outright lie, but told america (and the world) a slanted truth. One prob though is that we don't have the information that they did at the time. Hell, there coulda been every indication that Iraq posessed WMD's and when we got their we JUST found killing feilds. I don't know about you but that right there would be enough to stir me into action. So that leads to the point... Why wasn't the U.N. doing their job.. Corruption

[quote=gamer10]

The way I see it, the whole UN should dissolve this council thingy and have a points chart. The more people in a country the more points it gets to vote with in worldwide decisions. I mean a country like India opting for the security council I view as very justified. How can one-sixth of the world's people not be represented.[/quote]

Im gonna have to veto that. Lets start a new one shall we?

Is America to free? OR... Do people use their rights of free speech and expression to their own advantage? ABC news is a good example of this. With their "Good day America. Tonight im going to tell you all the bad things that happened today and all the bad things that could happen in the future. Were a news team devoted to bringing down the president and the goverment."

The question is, would you rather them not have that power?

Free speech is a kicker...

[quote]The question is, would you rather them not have that power?[/quote]

To a degree yes.

To bad we live in a world of absolutes

Free speech is already limited - no slander, libel, etc.

That's all the limit it needs. I like being able to say/write whatever I want.

[quote=Dantrag]Free speech is already limited - no slander, libel, etc.

That's all the limit it needs. I like being able to say/write whatever I want.[/quote]

Which is a great reason why we live in a democracy such as ours, aye?

A republic actually.


but yes, yes it is. It gives me the right to disagree with things as well as agree with things.

While I don't agree with everything that politicians do...I still like having the freedom to choose them, as well as voice my disagreement with them.

Democracy, republic.. bah.. its like spam and ham.. ones not what it says it is

(And I mean the wonder meat)

Actually it's a Federal Republic, whatever the heck that means.

I prefer Bush as well, why? Mainly because I don't like the sound of Kerry's voice. :lmao:

And you like the sound of Bush's voice? Now that's just plain weird

Hehe... Maybe he likes the Texas style

No, I like the sound of Elmo's voice.

"Hewo evewyone, I' your new pwesident."

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

No, I think we should elect some random guy president. . . . wait we've always done that.

Well, as long as our president can take over a few other countries and make them into states I'm all fine with that.

About your idea for votes based on country size Gamer10 - I think it makes perfect sense in terms of democracy. To use an analogy, it wouldn't be fair if all of the states in the USA were worth the same number of points in an election, since they have different numbers of people. With the current system, 2 small countries, which may have between them only half of the number of people as one of the larger countries, have twice as much power as one large country, which clearly isn't fair in democratic terms. Personally though, I wouldn't like to see big countries like the USA, China and India having larger amounts of power, and the new system would lessen the influence of Great Britain. I'm not exactly a great advocate of democracy either, but at least it prevents conflict over what the majority want.

About free speech - speech isn't as free as it could be, but I think it's fine as it is. I like being able to say what I want about any issue. I do find that Political Correctness is becoming quite a barrier to free speech - I'm totally against racism, but having to tiptoe round describing a person's skin colour or country of origin is ridiculous - I mean, what next? Will be be prevented from mentioning a person's sex?

[quote=Chumbaniya] To use an analogy, it wouldn't be fair if all of the states in the USA were worth the same number of points in an election, since they have different numbers of people.

but having to tiptoe round describing a person's skin colour or country of origin is ridiculous - I mean, what next? Will be be prevented from mentioning a person's sex?[/quote]

Thats how it works here. Electorial votes are the ones that really count. Small states have less electorials where texas or NY have alot.

Thats what im trying to say. You can't even say the word bible in some schools with out getting in trouble.

[quote=jonajosa]Thats what im trying to say. You can't even say the word bible in some schools with out getting in trouble.[/quote]

I think the US is probably a bit more touchy about religion than the UK, but there are new laws here preventing comments that are against religion, which probably means I'm going to be breaking the law from now on.

Well, where I went to school no one was strict with the religion rules. Maybe because it was such a small school. . .

What do you think about the next G8 meeting?

G8?

[quote=LoneWolf]G8?[/quote]

Get with the times man!

It's a meeting with the leaders of the world's 8 largest economies. It's happening soon near Edinburgh.

oh. And i will never get with the times when it comes to stuff like that. NEVER!!!!!

Why not? There's nothing wrong with knowing what is going on in the world.

Even for the politically unaware, the G8 is a pretty big event. I don't suppose much will actually get done though, apart from some empty promises of aid to africa in the long term, and Bush refusing (again) to do anything about pollution. Aparently, he's said that reducing carbon dioxide emissions is not the way forward, instead favouring new energy generation techniques - why the hell not reduce carbon dioxide emissions too? It's not like it will harm anything!

Anyway, in other news () London has pwned Paris in the 2012 olympic bid. I'm not too fussed by getting the olympics in britain, but at least we beat the french (just like in so many wars... j/k ).