Alright, my opinion on this draws a lot of anger out of everybody I've argued with, and in fact this the one topic in debate I can rarely win supporting my own, complicated viewpoint.

But here's the thing, people pissed off at immigrants are pissed off at people who are suffering and trying to make something for themselves and survive and support families. When your family can't afford food or medicine, I'm sure many of you would find your priorities as far as patriotism and ridiculous laws to rearrange a little.

Really, Immigration is just one of many repercussions the United Staes and other countries have had to face because of the Global Class War. People say they're stealing our money and our jobs and because the money is going to their countries it's not helping the economy at all, but the United States has this economy from... get this, taking the money from them.

And of course the American Citizens didn't do it, but take the Pacifics right now, U.S. "territories" (Ahem, colonies) have people moving in shiploads to New Zealand, because in these U.S. "Territories" there are no laws against child labour and sweat shops. That's right, clothing manufactured here can be bannered "Made in the US" but are still made in Sweat Shops.

My friend from New Zealand tries to say he's not a racist, but that he aginst the hamster cave Islanders, and that if that meant he was racist he didn't care, but he tried to come up with a whole lot of reasons, like they're lazy and violent. In fact, since they started immigrated, gang violence in New Zealand has shot up the roof. But, that's because of a state of poverty, they go to NZ looking for a better situation and find themselves locked in poverty. Poor people fight each other, it's sort of a "divie and conquer" thing. In fact, as Malcolm X pointed out later in his life, all racism is "Divide and Conquer."

The immigrants are not the problem, they come to the United States not to reap off our benefits, but to work hard and make someething of their lives. Illegal Immigrants are the one group of people following the American Dream most closesly.

I'd also like to point out to Dantrag, like 1/4 of a penny of every tax dollar goes into Education. What those illegal immigrants aren't paying for is the military control that has been supporting fascist control from the very countries they came from. Frankly, if I came from Chile I wouldn't be paying American hamster cave Taxes either.

Your friend is greatly misinformed, crime rates have "shot up" in most developed country because crimes started getting reported. Pacific islanders ARE over represented in prisions but they are also over represented in many universities, the reason they are over represented in prisions is because most of them come over here quite poor while Europeans need to be rich to come here, and poor people are over represented in prisions everywhere. So yes, tell your friend he is stupid

And I don't see why people make such a big deal over immigrants, not starving people or letting them suffer shouldn't be conditional on taxes. They still add to the US economy where nobody else will, and they do that without rights, do you think they go to the police when they need help? Do you think they go to the hospitial when they get sick? Do you think they go on the streets to protest? If you do then you are greatly confused, those are the legal ones who give a f*ck, the illegal ones aren't supid enough to do that. And I don't see what is wrong with people who earn money don't a job which an American couldn't/wouldn't selflessly sending money back to their poor families, that is what liberity is all about.



And if you were adopted from a poor family then you would leave school. Ha I doubt you would. Just because they lived a worse life than you doesn't mean they can't live a better one than you. Schooling isn't done just for fun, its done as an investment into working citizens.

Do you know how much a fourth of a penny is, when everyone pays it?

Besides, you're saying that because it doesn't cost all that much, it's free for the taking. Well tell me this; if a piece of gum only costs ten cents, does it make it okay to steal it? I say no.



On the same train of thought here. Getting even public education for free is stealing. Because everybody pays for it, except those who are here illegally. You're basically saying that them stealing education is justified because they are poor.

I know I sound like a total boat here, but it's the truth. There is a legal way to become a citizen here, and everyone should go about it in that way. They only hurt themselves by not becoming a citizen anyway. How can they hope to have a brighter future when the only jobsthey can get are ones that pay under the table?

This makes their free education almost worthless doesn't it?

Just a question regarding the illegal immigrants in the US: Don't they get discovered when they send their children to public schools?

I mean when you send kids to school you have to give out all sorts of information regarding who you are and where you live, and of course your social security number, right? So when the teachers or principal or who ever is in charge of the pupil/student checks this, it will be discovered that the parents are illegal immigrants? Or I guess not since it is discussed here, but I was just wondering why no one checks this? I mean it takes a few minutes to check this info, minutes that could save you country billions of dollars in illegimate social/school payouts.

Of course it would be a shame for the kids not to be able to go to school, but at least the parents would be detected and could choose if they would like to become tax-paying citizens or leave the country, giving the children a better chance to become 'legal' citizens either in the US or where they came from. Children growing up with chronically criminal parents will most likely become criminals themselves.

The principals, teachers, etc., don't want to report it. That's really the extent of it.

My friend didn't say that, my friend just commented on how much he hates Islanders.

I am not misinformed, pacific islanders immigrate to New Zealand impoverished, and represent a large portion of gang violence. Many Islands in Pacifics are United States Colonies, you can look at up in any statistics, they always report the same thing, the Islands in the pacific that are Unites States Colonies, or just failed states in themselves, have a huge emmigration rate to New Zealand, legal alone since they can mark the illegal. They go there because they have no choice, the Islands, expecially US colonies, are heavily oppressed, filled to the brink with sweat shops, under pay being notorious.

And poor people fight each other, they always have. They do in the US, they do in New Zealand.

But, you missed my point, I was drawing a connection because it's an easier example since everyone who's read about modern economics knows the common people of the Pacific Islands are oppressed beyond reason, and about the effect is has on New Zealand.

Funny you'd ask these questions, because here in Florida we have a resounding "Yes" to all of them. On any given weekend, the police spend an inordinate ammount of time breaking up fights and settling domestic squabbles of illegal immigrants, who do ont pay taxes for police services.

Go to any public hospital emergency room and you'll see it packed with illegals waiting for hour upon hour for free medical treatment. Not meant to be free, but they simply don't ever pay. They use emergency rooms the way most people use their doctors, thus clogging the emergency rooms for everyone, especiallly those who are insured, pay their bills and have an emergency that can wait a bit for others more serious to be attended to.

And as to protests? Orlando just had the largest ever protest in our history staged by illegal immigrants from everywhere and foreign nationals who all wanted President Bush to lighten up on the immigration laws to this country. I'm not sure but I think the prez pretty much squashed everyone's dreams, or so rumor has it.


I will never be against immigration from one country to another. I myself am only 2nd generation American on the maternal Polish side. But I do believe strongly in embracing the mores and customs of the new country, at least enough to fit in. That's not to say that if I moved to Europe, for instance, I wouldn't seek out the English speaking sector of the country I was in just so I could communicate at first and feel some sense of community...but I would be ferociously learning the native language at the same time and immersing myself in their TV, radio, books and magazines in order to try to learn my new language as swiflty as possible.

In the US there is 11 million illegal immigrants and 40 million legal ones. Given the US's history of arresting protesters, if the illegal immigrants came to one then the police could have a field day arresting protesters legally for once. Illegal immigrants can't protest because they don't vote, no vote, no voice, that is how democracy works. How do you know they are illegal? You'll find most illegal ones don't want to be deported.



Education is given not paid for. Higher levels of income leads to higher economic prosperity, hence why it is called for an investment. And your parents didn't pay their taxes for your education, if they never had a child then their taxes wouldn't be returned to them, they paid their taxes for their own education and to educate other people so those people can become model citizens and contribute to the economy. Your are stealing no matter if your parents paid taxes because they never paid taxes for you. After this revelation will you leave school or turn yourself into the police? No, I don't think you will so don't bother trying to claim the high ground.

And stop contradicting yourself, people are umbrella seller about how they don't learn English and become a citizen, and yet people umbrella seller when they do learn English and become a citizen because they are "stealing education". Anyone who has read about modern economics knows that taxes isn't the only way to contribute to an economy, the other way is by providing labour, and since they don't get paid minimum wage they provide more labour than the average American and provide more to the economy, besides if they are working then they do pay taxes whenever their employer sells something or they buy something, who cares if its not directly. Money is only valued for its buying power, by working within the US they increase its buying power leading to an increase of GDP but much more importantly GDH which is the reason money even exists.

And lastly, I'm sure all the illegal immigrants would love to become citizens, but if you remember your constitution was broken and free immigration was replaced by a lottery. The founding fathers wanted a multicultural nation but these days American values are wasted on Americans.

And the only reason it's given is because tax-paying citizens pay for it. Which really means, it's paid for, not given. .

Okay, granted, my parents didn't directly pay for my education, and people with no children don't pay for their children's education. But still, people living in this country illegally are being rewarded for being criminals in a sense, by not having to pay for things that a normal American does.



I didn't contradict myself at all. I was saying that the illegal immigrants were stealing education. Once they're legal and pay taxes like the rest of us, there's no problem, which is why I support allowing them citizenship.

Personally, I would rather them support the economy through taxes; it's a better life. If they were given citizenship, then they could actually get a decent job that pays well. And yes, they would pay taxes, but they would get a better working environment as well as better pay.

But dantrag, would you push that opinion far enough to say... join my side of the fence, where I stand for the original beliefs of the founding fathers?

Come in your huddle masses, come all the oppressed people of the world, all people seeking freedom, all people trying to escape their fate and start a new life, come to this new world, and we'll build a country off that.

That's how they thought of America when they first constructed it.

I always find it funny that a country whose population is based on unchecked and unregulated immigration gets peeved at illegal immigrants.

Anyway, in the UK we're having a HUGE asylum debate, because of certain things that are going on - illegal immigration being one of them. My personal favorite is that some Afghans hijacked a plane, landed in the UK, and we can't deport them because it would breech their human rights.

Still, my opinion on asylum is this. If you are trying to flee a regime of terror, you go to the first safe place you can find. When the Jews were persecuted by the Nazis, they fled to the first safe place they could. Full respect, there isn't anything wrong with that.

What annoys the hell out of me is these people who claim asylum in the UK, having travelled through countries such as Germany, Holland, Belgium and France - none of which are currently engaged in a violent civil war.

You flee to the first country you can (and then, if needs be, other countries help that country deal with it through the proper governmental channels). You don't flee across mainland europe and sneak across 30 miles of water just because you fancy your chances at exploiting the British system.

Most people don't mind that they are coming here, but I think even the founding fathers thought they would join the whole and help contribute as a member of the new society instead of leeching off the benefits.

If being 'illegal' is so difficult as many are using as a defense for it, then why do they remain 'illegal'. Clearly the benefits of not contributing as citizen must outweigh the risk of being exported again if found.


Ultimately though the problem is actually more easily solved than trying to round up those that refuse to go through the citizenship process. Focus on the businesses that are exploiting them as cheap labor. Enact laws that come with such heavy penalties and fines that businesses will ensure that their labor force are US citizens. Enforcement of the law is also key, because that is simply how we have arrived at an astounding 11 million illegal immigrants in the first place. We chose to overlook the problem for so long because we felt that 'it was just people looking for a better life'. This isn't just a small annoyance anymore. 11 million is a significant portion of our population. There are alot of countries around the world that don't have that many people.

There are two kinds of injustice in motion with the current situation. The businesses that exploit the illegals as cheap labor, paying them extremely low wages and the injustice that the illegals are using social benefit programs that they themselves are not contributing members. Why is there no outcry against these injustices when both could be eliminated if they just became full-fledged members of the society?

To boil my opinions down alot....

I support allowing illegal immigrants currently staying in the US citizenship, while trying our best to keep others out.

Ah, Neela, see for that I think to make the best situation for all human beings is to make becoming a US citizen as easy as finding a consulate building and applying. And, they do contribute very much as it is, they're not just leeching off the benefits. They come to this country specifically to work hard and make their lives better, taxes aren't the entire equation. (Less than half the taxes count anyway, since 56% is military).

But, think about it, that would just overpopulate the United Staes and make getting jobs impossible, the only REAL solution is to make life better in Mexico, and they few ways to that are abolish NAFTA, stop funding the puppet government and the freaking IRP will dissolve on it's own for not favoring democracy, and that scum-bucket Salinas can collapse on his own fat.

What I find interesting is, our forefathers didn't give a hoot about immigration laws. It was: jump on a boat, sail to North America, kill the native american men, rape their women, settle down on a piece of their land, and *poof* we have America.

Now we're trying to close the door behind us, and lock it.

And what about Canadians, it would be silly to say that many of them don't come here to find a better life. You know how many Canadians are coming to the US and taking jobs? A lot.

Sure, there are plenty of illegal immigrants, but its different for everyone. It would certainly be easier for someone of French or British origin to apply for US citizenship then it would be for a Mexican whos great grandmother was raped long ago by some Spanish guy, because of the public perception of certain people.

Illegal immigrants children should go to school, assimilation is what I'd refer to it as, and its good. We needn't hassle them, in fact, we should give them every reason to be proud of America.

If my government makes a law, I'll respect it, but I won't hesitate to voice my opinion. Someone stated earlier, I don't really care who it is because this statement was rather offensive, that if someone is more proud of one country than another they should go to where their allegiance lies.

Just to let whoever it was know:

I live in a nation where our constitution grants me the right to voice my opinion. Its not treason if I do so, and it certainly doesn't mean I'm not proud of my nation. The thing is, it appears you think that people who prefer Spanish over English should go and live in a Spanish speaking country. This is rather strange, America is a melting pot of cultures, and the government should provide services in all the major languages spoken in America. English is not a unifying language, look at the debate its causing.

It was me and I didn't mean to be offensive. But I wonder if you've ever waited at a bus stop in San Antonio Texas and felt like a total stranger because everyone around you is speaking Spanish and yes, you are the outsider in your own country. Or have you lived in a poorer section of Tampa and found that all your neighbors disregard you with contempt? Why?? Again - you are the outsider who doesn't speak Spanish, the neighborhood language. Why, you might even be a spy for Immigration...

Yes I've been offended in my own country but I didn't mean to offend.

Putting my statement on the other foot ... let's say I a Floridian move to Belgium. But, I constantly state to everyone I meet (who understands English) that everything is better in Florida - the weather, the people, the buildings, the customs, the fashions, the food, everything. And I dress only in Florida fashion and I speak only ParrotHead English and I refuse to learn the native languages of Belgium, I just expect all government and private enterprises to cater to me and speak & write in English.
That I expect to use all the social programs but pay no taxes. That I am in fact sending almost my entire illegal paycheck back to Florida to my husband. That I pay no taxes but want all the services and privileges that Belgian citizens get. Would you like me for a resident of your country? Why don't you fill your whole country with people just like me and see how well things go??? No offense!


To take your own words, which are so true - America is the "melting pot" society and like it or not, English is the sauce that binds everyone together in a nice, understandable flavor. In order for any society to work well, communication is key. That doesn't really mean that it is the government's job to print up information in every East Islander language, Bornio script, Hindustani, etc. and every other remote or populace natiionaliity who may find their way to our shores. They come here cause they know the rules and they like them ... that's why they gave up home & hearth to come to America. It is resoundant upon them to learn the language and the customs and of course - add their own wonderful flavor - customs, fashions, languages, mores, etc. to the mix that is American. We are varied, we are children of rogues, pirates and princes, we are determined, we are proud, we are free .... welcome to the mosh pit!

============

And just on an aside note to Neela's good idea concerning affecting the businesses who hire illegal aliens as workers .... (this may very well be offensive!) But I can only just see the look on the huge, uneducated, indolent, never worked before Welfare Mother's faces if they were ever told that there is no more free dole for their kind in this country and that they will be earning their keep by picking oranges for a living.
No way would I ever want to stick around for what they've got to say about it.

Edit* I've thought about this and before I come off sounding like a raging anit-hispanic I must note that I've worked with many Hispanic people, have been to Spain, have friends who are Hispanic and read Spanish way better than I can speak it but can speak it on a level of rudumentary conversations.
The people from Spain, Central and South America that I've worked with were not here illegally and respected the laws and customs of the US, plus whatever business we worked in.
What I am against is illegal occupancy anywhere ... whether it be squatters in an apartment or on land, depriving the landlord of a just income or people just squatting in a country, with no intention of getting along in the normal ways.

What would happen is that Kosovo would still be Serbian country. It was Serbian for centuries, and It should have stayed ours for senturies. We wouldn't have refuges banished from their homes. We wouldn't have our churches demolished, that are here from the very begining of Serbian civilisation (I say Serbian, not south Slovenian).

I will start from the begining. Kosovo was our land. But then, Albanians, that have their country nearby, started emigrating into Kosovo. They started having 15 childern per family, just to make a huge number. One day they rebelled, and wanted Kosovo as their own country, with absolutly no valid arguments why should it be theirs. Normaly, to stop the rebellion, our president sent an Army to deal with the rebells, and get the Serbs back their homes from which they were banished. Read this article. It's not entierly true, but what is true is that refugees are not in their homes and that NATO ''made a mistake''. Hmph.

USA had no right to interfier. That was our war, and only we and Albanians should fight it. If we had our way, Kosovo would still be ours, and the rebells would be dealt with. By rebells, I mean people who from UCK who are mere terrorists.

The real reasons for America interfiering are offcourse not known. Ordinary people never know the truth. Never. Just like the Americans don't know the thruth why are they in war with Iraq. Or do you really think USA is there to free Iraq from a terrorist? I have some theories, but I would rather keep them to myself

If you have any questions, feel free to ask

EDIT: I told you a kinda simplyfied version of the story. It all happened that way, but not all is black and white. Milošević showed himself a horrible polititian, by not accepting the NATO demands, and not being flexible at all. Demands that we later had to grant. Such as the bigest USA base in Europe. There is no logic being a small poor country, and be in war with 36 (I think) the most developed countries in the world. If only Russians didn't sold us out. There was a deal to get the new AA systems from Russia, but they canceled it due to US fonding. So much for ''Serbs our brethren''.

I always find Albania really funny. If only for King Zog.

Watch it Foster, my whole family emigrated from Albania to the U.S to escape King Zog, he may be comical to you, but h'e s tyrant to me.

No, I'm kidding.

So I have a little wuestion, what do you guys think about Mexico legalized personal use rations of all drugs? I'm thinking I know a lot of people that will be moving to Mexico.

Mexico is a poor country AFAIK. I don't think that someone from USA would go live in a poor country just because the drugs are legal. Well, except for junkies. But then, they won't have money for those strong drugs. So, it's a really bad idea, unless you can think of a good scam. Get money from USA, live in Mexico. Jackpot.

But, I belive you can expect a bit more smugglers. Now that everyone knows from where they can get it, they just have to think of a creative way to actualy get it over the border. Any ideas?

For Mexico, this is a good thing. They can expect a lot of $$$ from tourists. For US? Well, depends from which angle you look at it. If you're a junkie, drugs will be cheaper ( which is good). If you hate drugs, it's horrible. Either way it's a bad thing overall. I do support marijuana, but I'm against anything stronger that can screw up you life. I think a lot young Americans would be tempted to try cocain or any similar garbage, if it's cheap. I hope for the best, and fear for the worst

Anyway, this is just a quick thought, in which I am not sure. Actualy I'm making some conclusions just based from common sence
If you would be kind to tell me a little bit more about it?

Actually, Hypno, my good man, you have told a compact, precise version of OUR side of the story - but, of course, nothing is ever black and white...


Albania isn't funny, man. It is a small ex-communist country, littered with corruption and powerty and criminals but they are people just like everyone else, they only had it rough... the only thing their leaders ever did was to aim all their nation's efforts against Serbia - it was like that 200 years ago and it's still like that now. Instead of talking I fear that we'll be looking each other over the fence for many more years.

p.s.: Although we're not much of a news or even a significant factor, there is one news from the region and you'll notice the change from my Location - The referendum about Montenegro's independence has succeeded and now our last union is shattered... so now we are back where we were in 1840's - apart and surrounded but hey, at least now "I have a name, I have a number..."

Seems to me you have your own version of the story
Can you post it?

Nope, no particular way of looking at things. We & they are all humans, we all live under the same sun - the only thing is, we will not start talking any time soon, I fear Kosovo must have a future, one way or the other, but the Albanians themselves MUST realise that people who were commiting attrocities over Serbs, Roms and other non-Albanian nations, as well as drug-dealers, gun smugglers and slave traffikers can't and won't lead them into future [European Union]... the sooner we all figure that out, that the corrupt politicians (read: ex-criminals) cannot validly represent a country, the better the things will become in Kosovo and all of Serbia.

This is the one thing we all can agree on, and what really matters. Instead of fighting each other we should work together to eliminate pollution and make our planet a good place for everyone to live on, and to find ways to spread our seeds to other worlds. We'll all have to leave Earth one day anyway when our star becomes too bright, so we might as well start preparing now...

Yes, actually it is. It isn't "our" nation to begin with. Please define who "our" refers to.

Does it belong to Chief Wiggum, of the Wiggum Tribe.


I don't think you are really understanding the message I'm trying to convey.

This nation does not belong to anyone in particular. No one has the right the say what language people should know. Quite frankly I'm just fine with English, but I respect the right of everyone else. In my school their are some very anti-foreign people, especially the teachers. Whether its more out of ignorance, or just plain hatred, I'll probably never know.



Thanks to the sun we have 'racial" categories such as Black and White. Thank you sun.

Ummm, I don't quite understand what you wanted to say by that.
Please, clear it out for me.

Well without the sun none of us would even have existed...

And Ibis is right (or at least I think this is what she meant): No land really 'belongs' to anyone. I mean we humans have existed for a few million years, while the lands have existed for billions of years. Why should a piece of paper written by one of us 'freshmen' mean that we can claim something that existed long before us? The world belongs to all of us and none of us. Simple as that.

I don't get it...

Hes saying that living under this same sun has made of devided, and I agree. Hard to stand under something that darkened the pigments in your skin and say, "Hey! Where the same!"

Anyways... Heres is one important fact to the immigration debate.

Illegal - Prohibited by law

Immigrant - A person who leaves one country to settle in another

Illegal + Immigrant = ???

They are in the wrong, I don't see citizens who evade taxes getting far away from the IRS.

And anyways, I see let em become citizens. Inforce the learning of english and give them basic civic jobs that pay a fair wage. First step.

About the sun, the sun and weather are very hot in Africa, Australia, ect. which gave the early humans living there darker skin colour. Because it isn't as hot in places like Canada and Northern European countries, the first humans to move there (or that were born there) developed lighter skin. Its a lot more complicated than that, but its a quick summary.

Now, I'm not a big fan of borders and land laws, but the Illegal immagrants are in the wrong. Skipping customs and taking illegal jobs is illegal and cannot be allowed. If the American Government were to give fair (aka enormous) fines to companies that hire illegal immigrants and force them to pay all workers an equal, fair pay, there would be no incentive to hire illegal immagrants. After this, the American government could make laws to make legal immagration easier like more customs offices, an easier customs system and more customs workers. These combined with deporting all childless Illegal immagrants would help ease the current problems.

Yea, but Red, how would that work? We are the Great Evil and are downplayed by the rest of the world.

Ok.. ok.. ok.. Here is my question. Why does everyone hate the USA (this goes out to you American America haters as well)? I would imagin cause we follow our own ideals and not yours? Or maybe its just cause we seemed to it right for the past 100+ years? (See our current.. err.. power.. for justification)

I mean I think France is a beautiful place, England is full of great people (not like southern hospitality though..), the Middle easterners and their customs/history is wonderous. I love these world nations/groups/peoples/animals yet because I'm an american I'm ignorant and a whole host of other things cause, and I quote, "You elected a monkey as a president", unquote. First off I didn't elect GWB, in fact if I coulda voted I woulda abstained. And he got voted in on fact that *gasp* people voted him in! Its not like he seized power.

For gods sake, he has like 2 more years.

If your wondering where this little blurb came from I was browsing different forums, such as the jolt.uk forums etc. and I found out that they (other people) think were horrible. Generally over here the only people we don't like are.. uh.. Actually I don't know a single place that I don't like, or people. I think you all are wonderous institutions but I like mine better, so I'm a nationalist and a bunch of other things. So much for caring about other countries..

Why did everybody hate Rome in the past?
Romans were wondering back then why does everybody hate Rome.

Same goes to US: War. You have violent politics. Making excuses going to hunt down criminals in Afghanistan, saving Iraq from Saddam, and finding wepons of massive destruction (which didn't exist), all for sake of stealing oil. I mean EVERYBODY knows that. Forget about any idea that USA are some kind of peace makers. Sorry, but peace can't be achived by guns and bombardment. I apologise if I'm being a bit too direct.

Everything in politics is about intrest. Nothing is done for free. Why would you, since you love your nation and all (and that's a very good thing, being a patriot), send your American to die for some Iraqi? Nah, you would keep your men safe. Let Iraqi solve their own diffrences. Just as you should leave Serbs and Albanians solve theirs.
More people die if you folks get involved

That's why i dislike USA politicians. Offcourse, I have nothing against the people, because people didn't really vote for ''let's PWN Serbia! ! !''
Nah, I belive Neela when she says you didn't even have a proper media coverage. I bet that people didn't even know that war is going on. And I am 100% sure most of them don't know where is Serbia on the map. I don't hate you or any other American. Joe Shmoe isn't responsable my country being bombed.

As for you inner politics, I couldn't care less. If it suits you, It suits me even better. I don't care fot US ideals, you can belive whatever you god damn want. But hands off my country

Note: You might think I'm a bit aggressive. I'm actualy perfectly calm, and brutaly honest in this. Since you asked, it would be a real shame if I didn't tell you the thruth. That's all

So, 9/11 was just one big excuse to hunt down criminals in Afghanistan? That's a llittle far-fetched, even for our government.

Iraq? Yes, it's an unjustified war, but not one for oil. If we only invaded Iraq for the oil, how come gas prices are going up, instead of down? If we were actually getting more oil in the country, the law of spuuly and demand would well, demand that oil get a lower price.

Tell me, how much is 1L of gas?
EDIT: And yes, Afghanistan is my mistake. I may have gone over the line there

Ooh dibs!

Channler, you ought to look at you statement more closely, and there lies the answer, if you just read over what you said very carefully a few times over, you might just get why so many people from all over the world have united in opposition against the United States...

have you figured it out yet?

Arrogance

I believe in following my own ideals as much as the next guy, but it's not strictly American. The American form of the American dream is that that one people will stride above all the others, and that it's their destiny to be great. The syntax of the American Dream is in the words, it's stamped American, as though no other human being on Earth is allowed to have ambition. Sure, ambition is a signatured personality trait of an American, but ethics are not, morality is only a spin-word used by the religious right to further their own agenda, real morality comes from stepping up and taking a stand against global injustice.

But the real, black-and-white, fact-based, economic issue that has so many people from all over the world pissed off is the global class war, the degradation of human rights and environmental protection in favor of making the richest people on this planet even richer. American corporations (and Canada, too, fuckers) have factories all over the planet where they spend nickles an hour and then bump up the products 1200%. Certain people have grown aware of these atrocities, these people, you seem to enjoy calling American America Haters, I prefer to call them Justice-Employees, because they sweat all day long for global justice and freedom, they are the new Americans and stand up for the real American Dream.

It's key to know most humans around the world don't blame American citizens, Channler, that's just the misconception. Just because someone burns a flag and says "Death to America" doesn't mean they hate any particular people, just the symbols, and everything it stands for. In fact, most people on the planet feel sorry for us, because of the choppy info we get in the media and the propaganda we are lead to believe.

Example: The movie black hawk down, painted as a bunch of American soldiers that went to a country to give them aid and got shot to smitherings. The truth? The ruling warlord of Somalia opposed American Corporations and all the free-trade they were imposing in his country, and he kicked the corporations out, or some other more complicated version of what I just said. So, the soldiers were, what's a polite way to say this? lead on to believe they were giving aid, when their real duty was to remove the warlord of that country so the United States could, as it has done a dozen times before, stick in a puppet government, not one that supported freedom and democracy, mind you, as they claim that they do, just one that would let in American Corporations.

And Somalia was just one example of Americans tricked to believe that the US fought for freedom when in practice fought for greed and the ambitions of a few fat white guys. Another example is Nicaragua, how many Americans talk about the Sandinistas and genocidal maniac? Well, it's funny how distorted that fact is, especially since it was originally printed that way. The Sandinistas, in their four years of government (and I can't remember the gentleman's name), eliminated illiteracy, nearly wiped out hunger and made a giant leap in medical availability. Four years later, after Nicaragua is approaching some sort of golden age? Well, it's funny, that golden age came at a price, including telling the hamster cave free-trade inplanted businesses that they were being forced to sell their lands. Oooooh, they didn't like that, not long after thanks to good ole Reagan, the whole country went to Hell. Assassins and death-squads trained by an American Assassination school, constructed under the orders of Reagan, tore people from their homes and tortured them to death or disappeared them. They were trained at an American military school, and went on violently over-throw the country and put in place a dictator, why? Because he let in US businesses.

America has been responsible for more injustice post world war 2 than every terrorist and failed state combined, that's why people oppose it. And, despite China's new-age capitalism and trigger-happy deathsquads, according to most analysts, they still don't hold a candle to the US.

Edit

While I was writing my essay you guys went ahead and started talking, hokay.

Dantrag- The reason gas prices are going up is because the oil companies recently pulled a fast one on the American Citizens, or have you been watching the news? Every oil exec in the business has been indicted and forced to try and explain their booming profits. They played it out as some sort of supply and demand thing, but there lacks a vital piece for that argument to be logical.

Iraq wasn't purely for Oil, every argument the liberals made about it came into existence. Look at Halliburton, they raked in billions upon billions up dollars from the Iraq expedition.

We do things in gallons (we have yet to convert totally to metrics) but one gallon (3.875 L of gasoline) (the last time I drove by a gas station coming home from school) is two dollars and ninety-five cents.

Compared to about 1.60 in 2002/03 when the war started.

The prices have always been around double in Europe.

On the west coast gas can be up to 4 dolalrs, especially around LA, but the cost of living in general is rather high here.

60% of what they pay at the pump is taxes in Europe.

Depends where.
I will remind you that not all the Europe is the same.
And somehow I'm not so convinced it's 60% Taxes.

Actually, thats backwards. The gas companies, who are good friends with the administration, used the war as an excuse to raise gas prices. Certain politicians (mostly in the administration) don't mind because they get huge amounts of money in taxes from the companies, or they're in the scam with them. Funny enough, CANADIAN oil companies are using the Iraq war as an excuse to rob us too, even though we have one of the largest oil reserves in the world.

As for the subject of American hating, I think hating an entire country becuase of those in power is rediculous. I don't burn Iraqi flags because of Saddam (actually, I've never burned a flag) and I don't hate my pro-Bush friends (although I do wonder why they voted for him).

EDIT: I get so freaking mad when I reply to this stuff.

I just have a moment I'm at work.

So Doomed your saying the UN coalition that was sent to Somolia was because initiated because Pakistan and all the other supporters wanted to force american business on the somolians? Your to funny.

Just in case this is directed to me, I stated I dislike US leaders, but I have nothing against people.

Read up on it, you're not getting the full story on the Somalia illegal invasion.

Well I'm not going to bother. Why? Cause I give up, I'm battered, torn up, mutilated and most of all tired. I can't do a multi-front campaign and keep my sanity any longer. Congrats.

The cold hard truth of it is that the American Government isn't good or evil. It is subject to the same ebbs and flows of morality that plague every nation. The only difference is that the US has alot more capacity to affect change. Sometimes this is for the better, sometimes it is not. One thing to remember is that most of the time when it is for the better, no one will ever hear about it or even realized that it was for the best. When its for the worst, everyone hears about it and will never forget it.

Example.. Alot of you sound like you are against the war in Iraq. Why? mostly because you don't see a reason for us to be there. Now what if, hypothetically speaking, we would have invaded and found a store of nuclear tipped warheads or at least material for creating dirty bombs. If no invasion had taken place and they then used these weapons and killed thousands or millions of people. Who would have been blamed then for NOT taking action sooner. The US of course. To be the American government/president means that there is no good course of action. You will get blamed for taking action and you will get blamed for not taking action.

This is another major reason why the US is looked on in a bad light. We are the action takers for good or for woe is to be judged by history, but being humans we really focus on the bad much less than the good.

Truth is that it is easy enough to look back on events in hindsight and complain about how it never should have happened, however, when those decisions were made, the decision makers didn't have the power to know the future.

The same thing will soon happen with Iran. Someone is going to have to make a decision whether to believe the Iran government that they only want to make peaceful nuclear power and not take action. This of course risks the fact that they are lying and will use their new weapon on someone(most likely Israel) which in turn will spark a major war where millions more will be killed. Or take action and possibly kill a few hundred people but putting the chance of Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon back a hundred years. Which will you choose? What if you choose wrong?

Thank you Neela, you just said what I couldn't of said.

As for Iran, let someone else deal with it, you know?

It is and they do ... it's called crack. I don't know anything about this Mexican attitude towards personal drugs, but I'm not at all surprised.

I realize that this post was a ways back, but I felt I had to comment on it because these illegal drug enabling countries are destroying the fiber of American life and that might really be their ultimate aim.

Concerning Americas attitudes about war in foriegn lands that seemingly don't affect us much .... let's see, Viet Nam was about very precious minerals vital to the space program being in abundance in the SouthEast basin, especially in Viet Nam. Obviously Desert Storm and Afganistan and Iraq are about oil ... of huge concern to American highway commerce. Our "efforts" in Columbia, Panama, and other countries South of us are more concerning cocaine than bananas. We reach out and control for our own commercial interests ... if we happen to free some people here and there from dictators, all the better.

{In some cases we were the ones who set the dictator up to rule in the first place ... but they became uncontrollable power freaks.} ... but we won't mention that.

Actually it's more like 70-80% in Norway, and the current price is about NOK 11-13 per liter, which is almost 2 dollars/euros. So about 7 dollars/euro for a US gallon.

And since I work in the oil business, I'd also like to point out that one of the main reasons for the high prices around the world is that very many oil-producing wells have reached their peak, and is now starting to produce less. This combined with a heavy increase in demand for oil - like the current industrial revolution in China - contributes to bringing the prices up.

Currently there are a huge amount of exploration wells under planning and already started all over the world, so hopefully they'll turn up good oil and gas producers which will bring the prices back down, but it could take some time.

Neela-

The US is not justified to go and invade every country it doesn't like just because a few people are suspicious they have nuclear weapons. The reason people are against the Iraq war is because the intelligence that pointed to Iraq as a threat was faulty, biased, and used for that purpose, as members of the administration who decided to clear their conscience by exposing the truth have informed us.

Everything about going into Iraq was wrong. Members of the administration have said Hussein was responsible for 9/11, by accident, during numerous press conferences, have said that it was necessary to get that dictator out of office, have said they want to invade Iraq because of some very real evidence on WMDs and because of a link to Al Quada, and have said that invading Iraq is all part of the war on terror.

Now, as a lot of people figured out before, but were ignored and are only allowed to say, "I told you so" today, we have the result, the reason why WE DON'T TRUST THE GOVERNMENT.

On removing Saddam Hussein, there are far more far worse dictators that harbour far more terrorists that Hussein ever did. Not only that, but historically the US has enplaced many more dictators than they've removed.

On WMDs, the main point being what if, well a fellow by the name of Richard A Clarke wrote a whole book revealing that the administration manipulated evidence, omitted evidence, and basically painted the report they wanted to use to make Iraq seems like it might possibly have WMDs. For god sakes some of their field intelligence on the matter was written by crayon!

On Al Quada, Bush has closer links to Al Quada than Hussein.

Oh, and of course on Terror, don't they say you should learn your enemy? Terrorism is the result of when people can't fight back by conventional means and choose unconventional means. The more war you wage, the more you piss people off that want revenge but can't go round up an army to do it, and so choose terrorism.

So, there, Neela, and no I'm not trying to turn this argument to be about Iraq, you had an example about how the US doing bad things gets highlighted, and the good stuff ignored, and about some what-if thing, so I retorted that particular example. Here's the funny thing, anyone with a drop of common sense knew all I just said before they ever went to Iraq, and knew what the final result would be. When an administration ignores their people, lies to them, and expects them to just eat their lies for dinner, and pretends the cator to freedom, equality and justice above all else, they are so soaked with corruption and draw such heavy opposition that Of course anyone who looks at them and their deeds will look with cynical eyes. It's like the boy who cried wolf.

Pretend to fight for freedom, invade a country and enplace a puppet dictator once, okay

Pretend to send aid and instead remove the anti US government and enplace their own puppet government & deathsquad, twice, okay

Make up bad things about a country to give reason for invading it so your friends' company can move in and make billions on the rebuild, and all your other associated friends and their companies can move in, too, no, not okay.

Actually none of it is okay ... but it happens. Why?

Since the long drawn-out miasma of the Viet Nam war, American politicians have learned and perfected the art of the mini-war. And the timing of them, to fit nicely within a certain administration, extend until just beyond a voting date and then to be miraculously ended by the ruling party that started the war for profit. Kind of redundant to say that, because all wars are for profit.
W. actually has failed at the mini-war, he's let his midEastern war get way out of hand. He had a real incentive though - vendetta, the avenging of his father's name, George Senior - who was forced to let Saddam slip out of his hands by his own administration in order to tie up their little miniwar neatly at the time.
But George W. served his purpose when he avenged his dad and shouldn't really ever had a second term. A second term?? He * *, he should never have had a first. But he did have a good plan ... see there's this little state called Florida and there's this little brother called Jeb... and Jeb's state has these things called hanging shads in the ballots ... & I hope that you all remember the story. Katherine Harris, who now looms large in the Senate for her Republican loyalty, arranged for the undecided ballots never to be counted, for Al Gore to be counted out on a "technical failure" and for the Bushes (yes there's a 3rd brother on Wall Street) to prosper. So W. ain't so dumb after all.
That this could happen in America, the supposedly most free nation on Earth, amazes me only less than that the American public bent over and took it.
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But that is not really what I wanted to say. What I want to say is a response to Player10's question about the use of the word "our". The only place I used that word was "our shores" and of course, anyone standing on a shore anywhere can use that term.
This thing about living uder one sun is so true and we should all pool together our efforts to cleanse and save our Mother Earth. Despite all that was said about illegal aliens, we here in Orlando saw the largest demonstration ever in our history that was concerning Immigration Laws, and I am on the side of making the illegals who are already here = legal. They are here, they need help, they need to be citizens, make it happen. We need the taxes.
Olav told it to you true, the oil reserves of the world are shrinking and although they are looking for new ones ... the hard fact is that someday there just ain't gonna be anymore. No more dinosaurs dying, are there? Sooo, we all need to think of cleaner ways of power - wind power, solar power, oceanic current power, corn squeezin's power. I know some people will say nuclear, but when they can tell what their gonna do with that heavy sludge that's left over to make it totally safe for Earth .. then I'll include that one.
And this that Olav said, really says it all to me ... and I would hope to you too:

Bout time we all started thinking of ourselves as children of Earth, like the original Americans did ... Mother Earth, Father Sun - respect the land and the animals are our brothers. Respect. I don't think the modern day has that word at all.