This is my position........
Abortion, unless done purely for the purposes of offsetting an imediate threat to the mother's life (choice 2) is murder by definition. Murder is the deliberate and pre-meditated killing of another human that is not done in self-defense. Upon what definition does a human fetus not constitute a human. It is the form taken by a human life at a certain stage of it's growth and development, it is not any other species therefore it is a human life. To draw an arbitery line in the sand at a certain point of the growth and development of a human life is ridiculous.
Sure the embryo at very early stages of it's development isn't conscious, but so what? Are we to excuse everyone who kills his victims say when in deep sleep, or while knocked out, on the basic that since they aren't presently conscious, they aren't officially human. The position of the embryo is exactly the same as the sleeping person, though they aren't conscious at present they will become so at a later point as their development reaches whatever mysterious point that they need to get too to become conscious. The fetus is thus 100% alive and 100% human and the process of abortion makes it 100% dead and 100% human, hence abortion is murder.
What about the other pro-abortion argument that the embryo/fetus constitutes a part of the woman's body. This doesn't make sense either. The embryo/fetus has a seperate genetic code (unless it's a clone) from it's mother and though it is totally dependant on it's mother for everything still constitutes a seperate entity inside the mothers body. If the fetus is considered part of the mother, that would mean that she can logically claim to be a bacterium, a virus, an intestinal worm or an ameoba, as all of these could also be inside her, along with millions of other parisites.
So abortion is murder.
Full Version: Abortion
I agree with ^, but I went with option #3. If you are raped would you really want to have a baby from that? As long as it is done as soon as possable (i.e. Not waiting a few months, but within a couple weeks.) then I find it acceptable. But as soon as you can see physical signs on the mother then that is way to far.
So as long as it is done early and from a rape I am okay with it.
So as long as it is done early and from a rape I am okay with it.
Abortion is a woman's choice. Who are you and I to tell a woman what she can do in her body? Condoms are not foolproof, nor are birth control pills.
QUOTE(Stargazey @ Aug 2 2005, 06:56 PM)
Abortion is a woman's choice. Who are you and I to tell a woman what she can do in her body? Condoms are not foolproof, nor are birth control pills.
Germany was Hitler's nation, was he right to do what he did?
Why carry out the act if you're not willing to bear the responsibility of what normally occurs without an unnatural prevention method?
QUOTE(gamer10 @ Aug 3 2005, 01:04 AM)
Germany was Hitler's nation, was he right to do what he did?
Why carry out the act if you're not willing to bear the responsibility of what normally occurs without an unnatural prevention method?
Why carry out the act if you're not willing to bear the responsibility of what normally occurs without an unnatural prevention method?
How does Hitler fit into this? Plus it isn't always because they said "Hey, let's have unprotected sex!".
QUOTE(Red @ Aug 2 2005, 07:13 PM)
How does Hitler fit into this? Plus it isn't always because they said "Hey, let's have unprotected sex!".
How does he not, Hitler was a murderer. A life is a life no matter what stage.
Right, if I understand correctly you're saying I don't believe in abortion when the woman is raped . . .
I am fully for abortion in that circumstance.
QUOTE(gamer10 @ Aug 3 2005, 01:15 AM)
How does he not, Hitler was a murderer. A life is a life no matter what stage.
Right, if I understand correctly you're saying I don't believe in abortion when the woman is raped . . .
I am fully for abortion in that circumstance.
Right, if I understand correctly you're saying I don't believe in abortion when the woman is raped . . .
I am fully for abortion in that circumstance.
Sorry about the last part, I was reading three tings at once. But I still think bringing Hitler into a conversation about to abortion is unnecisary.
QUOTE(Red @ Aug 2 2005, 08:57 PM)
Sorry about the last part, I was reading three tings at once. But I still think bringing Hitler into a conversation about to abortion is unnecisary.
I've done it many a time. It's a very good analogy.
I am personally anti-abortion, seeing as it is killing off a human child. I used to be against it except in cases of rape, but now I'm reconsidering and going more towards totally wrong - it isn't the baby's fault his mother was raped.
And when someone says "It's the woman's body, she can do what she wants with it." Well, there just *happens* to be another body inside of hers. Is it her right to kill another human merely because it is in her body? I think not. That would be along the same lines as "You're in my house, so I can kill you."
Or, as gamer10 said, Hitler could say. "Hey, you're in my country, so I can kill you.'
While I normally wouldn't touch a topic like this with a ten-foot pole, I guess it wouldn't hurt.
I think abortion is only acceptable if the mother's life is in danger. In matters of rape, I quote Mr. Terry Goodkind, author: 'The sins of the father do not carry to the child', or something like that. Anyways, he is right. Why should the child be punished for the actions of the father? Either way you look at it, its taking a life.
These are just my thoughts. Flame all you want but they wont change.
I think abortion is only acceptable if the mother's life is in danger. In matters of rape, I quote Mr. Terry Goodkind, author: 'The sins of the father do not carry to the child', or something like that. Anyways, he is right. Why should the child be punished for the actions of the father? Either way you look at it, its taking a life.
These are just my thoughts. Flame all you want but they wont change.
Look at rthe last parliament (the locked one) for my argument.
Brief summary: We tried the [b]illegal[.b] thing out, and it didn't work. People were getting abortions anyway, illegal ones. Ones without certified doctors, because they were that desperate. That's the world we were living in, and it hasn't changed. You can argue against those girls as much as you want saying they deserve their parents shame etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, but in the end you can't stop them. At least this way we can keep it clean and under control. Talk about when life begins as much as you want, but no matter what, those teenage girls are alive, and go ahead and blame them for getting pregnant, say they deserve what they get if you will, but plenty will still persue abortion. You will not change that by making it illegal, all you will do is cost us the lives of hundreds of young girls, like the ones that were dying back when it was illegal. It is a cold, hard fact that since abortion was legalized the rate of girls dying from illnesses related to abortion has nearly ceased completely.
Brief summary: We tried the [b]illegal[.b] thing out, and it didn't work. People were getting abortions anyway, illegal ones. Ones without certified doctors, because they were that desperate. That's the world we were living in, and it hasn't changed. You can argue against those girls as much as you want saying they deserve their parents shame etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, but in the end you can't stop them. At least this way we can keep it clean and under control. Talk about when life begins as much as you want, but no matter what, those teenage girls are alive, and go ahead and blame them for getting pregnant, say they deserve what they get if you will, but plenty will still persue abortion. You will not change that by making it illegal, all you will do is cost us the lives of hundreds of young girls, like the ones that were dying back when it was illegal. It is a cold, hard fact that since abortion was legalized the rate of girls dying from illnesses related to abortion has nearly ceased completely.
QUOTE(DoomedOne @ Aug 3 2005, 01:21 AM)
Look at rthe last parliament (the locked one) for my argument.
Brief summary: We tried the [b]illegal[.b] thing out, and it didn't work. People were getting abortions anyway, illegal ones. Ones without certified doctors, because they were that desperate. That's the world we were living in, and it hasn't changed. You can argue against those girls as much as you want saying they deserve their parents shame etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, but in the end you can't stop them. At least this way we can keep it clean and under control. Talk about when life begins as much as you want, but no matter what, those teenage girls are alive, and go ahead and blame them for getting pregnant, say they deserve what they get if you will, but plenty will still persue abortion. You will not change that by making it illegal, all you will do is cost us the lives of hundreds of young girls, like the ones that were dying back when it was illegal. It is a cold, hard fact that since abortion was legalized the rate of girls dying from illnesses related to abortion has nearly ceased completely.
Brief summary: We tried the [b]illegal[.b] thing out, and it didn't work. People were getting abortions anyway, illegal ones. Ones without certified doctors, because they were that desperate. That's the world we were living in, and it hasn't changed. You can argue against those girls as much as you want saying they deserve their parents shame etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, but in the end you can't stop them. At least this way we can keep it clean and under control. Talk about when life begins as much as you want, but no matter what, those teenage girls are alive, and go ahead and blame them for getting pregnant, say they deserve what they get if you will, but plenty will still persue abortion. You will not change that by making it illegal, all you will do is cost us the lives of hundreds of young girls, like the ones that were dying back when it was illegal. It is a cold, hard fact that since abortion was legalized the rate of girls dying from illnesses related to abortion has nearly ceased completely.
Basically, you just said that we shouldn't stand on our values because the rest of the world is bad.
Should we make murder legal because it happens anyway? Because really I could take that last post and replace a few phrases to make that same logic apply to many other things.
Murder is not a perfect parallel to abortion. Your point is obviously to give me perspective to understand that Abortion is a lot like teenage girls killing children, only the children are in their bodies and they're not children yet, but to you, murder is murder. That is my understanding, that murder is murder. I agree with you, I think these girls are murdering their children, but I'm not a polarizer, therefore I don't think murder is murder. Only a sith deals in absolute (I really couldn't resist). You can personally disagree with abortion all you like, and I agree, I'd rather not be a part of it. I'd rather a girl I'm in relation with make the choice to have the baby and put into adoption. But I'm not there, and there thousands of situations all over the globe where there aren't people like us who have a say in it. There are plenty of girls who will get an abortion no matter what. We can't stop that, what we can do is control it. In this situation, it's a choice between losing a few thousand young girls every year and losing a few thousand potential children every year. In that sense, it's not like murder, it's called picking your poison. To me, the baby has maybe two people that care for it, while that girl has an entire family that will be utterly heart-broken. The world does not work in a way where you can save everybody. Hell, I'd love it if Vash the Stampede were here to figure out a way to save every single girl on the planet that gets pregnant and decides to get reckless instead of facing a child.
I'm all for abortion. A teenage girl shouldn't be forced to be a mother just because she made a dumb mistake.
Having an abortion may ruin one life, but keeping it might ruin two.
QUOTE(Konradude @ Aug 3 2005, 08:59 AM)
Having an abortion may ruin one life, but keeping it might ruin two.
Wrong, an abortion ends one life, but keeping it (might) ruin two. Which is worse, murder or the possibility of a less than entirely rosy life.
Seriously though, I fail to grasp Doomed One's logic on the murder thing or on the "illiegal abortions thing either". What you're basicly saying is that just beacause some murderers get their heads smashed in by their victims in the process of murdering them, we should legalise murder. This is the logic of what is bieng said. The argument goes like this.........
Why have risky dangerous illegal murders with the attendant risks to the murderers life when we can make murder legal and have NHS squads drug the victims, drag them into ambulences, take them to the NHS "life wards" where there lives can be ended in an orginised and disciplined manner which minimises the risk to the murderers life, rather than having risky and dangeus illiegal murders that pose a threat to the murderers life.
Remember, we're not talking thousands, we're talking millions of lives here, a mass murder comparable to what Hitler, Stalin and Mao did. Even if a few hundred girls every year die each year from the consequences of their actions, then we're talking a comparitively small number. And morally they are choosing to break the law of their own free will, laws put in place to keep people from having abortions, so it's hardly as though they are innocents is it? They may be motivated by strong feelings to kill their own unborn children, but so are many murderers motivated by strong feelings to kill their (already born) victims.
So you think it should be totally illegal? So a 12 year old girl gets raped, and she is in a home because she lost her parents. You think this is a good standing for a human life?
QUOTE(Slayer of Cliffracers @ Aug 3 2005, 01:28 PM)
What you're basicly saying is that just beacause some murderers get their heads smashed in by their victims in the process of murdering them, we should legalise murder. This is the logic of what is bieng said.
That is not what he is saying. Please do not twist his words.
QUOTE(gamer10 @ Aug 3 2005, 01:04 AM)
Germany was Hitler's nation, was he right to do what he did?
Why carry out the act if you're not willing to bear the responsibility of what normally occurs without an unnatural prevention method?
Why carry out the act if you're not willing to bear the responsibility of what normally occurs without an unnatural prevention method?
So, are abortion doctors akin to the third reich?
It's a woman's choice! If a minor is brutally raped, by a sex offender, does she have to bare his child? No.
Please, folks. Avoid all manners of unnecessary hostility. We've had quite enough of that already.
That includes putting words or entire sentences in caps (annoying, rude and unncecessary), "smirky sarcasm", challanging others to prove you wrong in a negative tone and putting words in other people's mouths.
These discussion and debate threads (any thread here, really) share a goal to allow people to share and argue their views without being afraid have them be met with insults or be patronized.
Respect other people's oppinions, faulty as they may be from your view. Argue your own views sensibly and politely. Thanks.
That includes putting words or entire sentences in caps (annoying, rude and unncecessary), "smirky sarcasm", challanging others to prove you wrong in a negative tone and putting words in other people's mouths.
These discussion and debate threads (any thread here, really) share a goal to allow people to share and argue their views without being afraid have them be met with insults or be patronized.
Respect other people's oppinions, faulty as they may be from your view. Argue your own views sensibly and politely. Thanks.
QUOTE(Epy @ Aug 3 2005, 09:49 AM)
Please, folks. Avoid all manners of unnecessary hostility. We've had quite enough of that already.
That includes putting words or entire sentences in caps (annoying, rude and unncecessary), "smirky sarcasm", challanging others to prove you wrong in a negative tone and putting words in other people's mouths.
These discussion and debate threads (any thread here, really) share a goal to allow people to share and argue their views without being afraid have them be met with insults or be patronized.
Respect other people's oppinions, faulty as they may be from your view. Argue your own views sensibly and politely. Thanks.
That includes putting words or entire sentences in caps (annoying, rude and unncecessary), "smirky sarcasm", challanging others to prove you wrong in a negative tone and putting words in other people's mouths.
These discussion and debate threads (any thread here, really) share a goal to allow people to share and argue their views without being afraid have them be met with insults or be patronized.
Respect other people's oppinions, faulty as they may be from your view. Argue your own views sensibly and politely. Thanks.
Oke Doke
I'm still wondering how a 12 year old girl could make that mistake . . .man this caught me off guard, it's not really a mistake if you had the choice of whether or not to do it and you consciously acted wrongly. If the parents aren't watching their children close enough . . .well then, I guess it's their fault. Make them take care of the child.
In the case of rape, my view is starting to become irrational so I won't post it.
In the case that you are an adult and you aren't raped:
In my opinion don't do it if you don't want the child, that's why the whole act of reproduction exsists, to have the child.
What else are you doing?
I was not putting words into anyone's mouth, no I was merely working out the moral logic of the argument. That's all.
In a way the argument of abortions in case of rape, no abortions except on the immediate threat to mother's life clause and legalised abortions, is actually a litmus test of moral criteria. If you base your moral system on a concrete (and most likely inflexable) set of laws then you will oppose abortion even in cases of rape. If you base your morality on emotion and concrete laws then you will probably allow abortion in cases of rape.
Noone has the right to arbiterily decide on the basis of any criteria to kill another human it is simply not morally acceptable behavior. Choice is irrelevant in this matter, given that all you are basicly meaning by "choice" is the entitlement to do the above. The entire apparatus of state and law has as it's first and foremost duty to protect innocent human life from bieng arbiterily slain by other humans. This is the first duty of the state, and stands above all it's other duties. To protect innocent human life is substantially more important that protecting private liberties, if they conflict with the above then the above takes precedence. Hence abortion should be illiegal according to the first principle. The only basis for arguing for legalised abortion would be the following.
1. The fetus does not constitute a human.
2. The fetus poses an immediate and direct threat to the life of another person, ie the mother.
3. The right of individuals to make their own choices is more important than the right of individuals not to arbiterily slain by others.
The human fetus is human, it has human DNA, descends from humans and develops as a human, therefore it is not any other kind of creature. Thereby the first argument cannot stand. Usually when the fetus poses a direct threat to the mothers life (such as in an ectopic pregnancy) it also poses a direct threat to own life, therefore by aborting the fetus you are minimising loss of life, by killing only one human rather than allowing two to die.
The third argument is not a code of law that any sane society can either believe in or operate under, by this logic murder at large should be legal also and for people to try to try to defend themselves against getting murdered is a crime, beacause you are defying the right of individuals to kill, unless you intend to kill the murderer rather than intend merely to avoid getting killed.
The circumstances of the fetus's conception makes no difference whatsoever to the situation as someone cannot reasonably be punished for something their father did unless your society believes in hereditery guilt and the penalty for rape is death.
Thus concludes my case for making abortion illiegal.
In a way the argument of abortions in case of rape, no abortions except on the immediate threat to mother's life clause and legalised abortions, is actually a litmus test of moral criteria. If you base your moral system on a concrete (and most likely inflexable) set of laws then you will oppose abortion even in cases of rape. If you base your morality on emotion and concrete laws then you will probably allow abortion in cases of rape.
Noone has the right to arbiterily decide on the basis of any criteria to kill another human it is simply not morally acceptable behavior. Choice is irrelevant in this matter, given that all you are basicly meaning by "choice" is the entitlement to do the above. The entire apparatus of state and law has as it's first and foremost duty to protect innocent human life from bieng arbiterily slain by other humans. This is the first duty of the state, and stands above all it's other duties. To protect innocent human life is substantially more important that protecting private liberties, if they conflict with the above then the above takes precedence. Hence abortion should be illiegal according to the first principle. The only basis for arguing for legalised abortion would be the following.
1. The fetus does not constitute a human.
2. The fetus poses an immediate and direct threat to the life of another person, ie the mother.
3. The right of individuals to make their own choices is more important than the right of individuals not to arbiterily slain by others.
The human fetus is human, it has human DNA, descends from humans and develops as a human, therefore it is not any other kind of creature. Thereby the first argument cannot stand. Usually when the fetus poses a direct threat to the mothers life (such as in an ectopic pregnancy) it also poses a direct threat to own life, therefore by aborting the fetus you are minimising loss of life, by killing only one human rather than allowing two to die.
The third argument is not a code of law that any sane society can either believe in or operate under, by this logic murder at large should be legal also and for people to try to try to defend themselves against getting murdered is a crime, beacause you are defying the right of individuals to kill, unless you intend to kill the murderer rather than intend merely to avoid getting killed.
The circumstances of the fetus's conception makes no difference whatsoever to the situation as someone cannot reasonably be punished for something their father did unless your society believes in hereditery guilt and the penalty for rape is death.
Thus concludes my case for making abortion illiegal.
So, are you going to strive to make periods illegal? After all, millions of lives are ending every month because of that.
A little off-topic...
Slayer of Cliffracers, just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on capital punishment?
Slayer of Cliffracers, just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on capital punishment?
QUOTE(Konradude @ Aug 3 2005, 12:18 PM)
So, are you going to strive to make periods illegal? After all, millions of lives are ending every month because of that.
What!?!
that would be like making hurricanes illegal and is no analogy to abortion in any way. (unless I just totally missed something.) Can I get an explanation?
QUOTE(Konradude @ Aug 3 2005, 11:18 AM)
So, are you going to strive to make periods illegal? After all, millions of lives are ending every month because of that.
Like Dantrag said, it's not something that can be controlled, or is that what he said?
Abortion is a choice, having a hurricane destroy your house isn't.
I'm not in favor of capital punishment, no. In my country (the UK) it isn't practiced and I wouldn't agree with it even if it was.
QUOTE(Stargazey @ Aug 3 2005, 01:56 AM)
Abortion is a woman's choice. Who are you and I to tell a woman what she can do in her body? Condoms are not foolproof, nor are birth control pills.
agreed. it's legal here in the netherlands, and I'm glad it is. say I get a girlfriend one day (yes yes I know, about as likely to happen as hell freezing over, but bear with me here
)and we mess things up and in the morning she's pregnant. I don't think I'd be ready for a child at this young age. can you imagine the same situation for someone that's 14 and tries to do some experimenting?
it's not fair to force someone to ruin their life for a mistake. yes it's your own responsibility, and yes everyone should pay attention as closely as possible to prevent something like this happening. still my point stands.
QUOTE(gamer10 @ Aug 3 2005, 02:04 AM)
Germany was Hitler's nation, was he right to do what he did?
Why carry out the act if you're not willing to bear the responsibility of what normally occurs without an unnatural prevention method?
Why carry out the act if you're not willing to bear the responsibility of what normally occurs without an unnatural prevention method?
comparing the third reich, holocaust and all to abortion doesn't sound like a good idea to be honest. it's also quite inaccurate IMO
QUOTE(stargelman @ Aug 3 2005, 06:39 PM)
A little off-topic...
Slayer of Cliffracers, just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on capital punishment?
Slayer of Cliffracers, just out of curiosity, what is your opinion on capital punishment?
:nono:
no going off topic star
QUOTE(Alexander @ Aug 4 2005, 12:47 AM)
it's not fair to force someone to ruin their life for a mistake.
So the child is somehow less human than the mother? You speak of ruining the mother's life, but nothing is said of the child that was murdered. Your rights end when they step over mine. Same concept with abortion. Why is the mother's right to live so much more important than the baby's? Because they are a different age? Size? Sounds an awful lot like discrimination to me.
I voted illegal unless a girl is raped.
I think abortion should be illegal, sorry those of you that have different opinions...Alex, I don't think people should be "experimenting" at the age of 14 I think if people are willing to experiment they should be willing to pay the price.
The only time I think abortion is justified is in the case of rape, when a girl is sexually assaulted I don't think she should be forced to conceive a child, just the way I feel about it.
It is my belief though that a woman shouldn't have a child aborted unless she is raped, otherwise it seems to me that a life is being taken. Many talk of how a girl's life could be ruined by having a child...but who is to decide that the child's life is not important?
It would seem to me that the child isn't being given a chance at life, which is in a sense murder. There's my opinion.
I think abortion should be illegal, sorry those of you that have different opinions...Alex, I don't think people should be "experimenting" at the age of 14 I think if people are willing to experiment they should be willing to pay the price.
The only time I think abortion is justified is in the case of rape, when a girl is sexually assaulted I don't think she should be forced to conceive a child, just the way I feel about it.
It is my belief though that a woman shouldn't have a child aborted unless she is raped, otherwise it seems to me that a life is being taken. Many talk of how a girl's life could be ruined by having a child...but who is to decide that the child's life is not important?
It would seem to me that the child isn't being given a chance at life, which is in a sense murder. There's my opinion.
Why shouldn't we compare abortion and the Nazi "final solution". Abortion is kind of the final solution to the "unwanted baby problem" set down to pave the way for the glorious age when "every child is a wanted child". Both effect a segmant of the human race that has been selected on some criteria and both are supported and sanctioned by the state, which naturally draws a distinction between what it does and murder on the basis of this criteria. The criteria is................
1. Bieng under a certain age
2. Not bieng wanted by your mother.
The only real difference is the fact that abortion, unlike the Nazi "final solution" is de-centralised mass-murder, organised by ordinery citizens and ground level and not directly orginised by the state though supported by it(with the exception of China with it's enforced 1 child policy). It's kind of emotive to put it in these terms, but even the rhetoric of abortion is eerily similer to the rhetoric of the Nazi's in many ways, the main difference is that they've substituted "glorious racial destiny" for "women's right to choose", in other words those that oppose abortion oppose "women's glorious destiny" in effect.
People make mistakes, so what? Does it somehow invalidate the fetus's right to life just beacause it's parents were stupid, no it doesn't. And for all we know the babies life wouldn't necceserily be complete hell, it's parents lives will be but then I guess that's babies for you. People should be helped to raise the children they concieved out of stupidity and taught responsibility, not helped to kill them, before bieng sent out into the world once more to make the same mistake once-more.
1. Bieng under a certain age
2. Not bieng wanted by your mother.
The only real difference is the fact that abortion, unlike the Nazi "final solution" is de-centralised mass-murder, organised by ordinery citizens and ground level and not directly orginised by the state though supported by it(with the exception of China with it's enforced 1 child policy). It's kind of emotive to put it in these terms, but even the rhetoric of abortion is eerily similer to the rhetoric of the Nazi's in many ways, the main difference is that they've substituted "glorious racial destiny" for "women's right to choose", in other words those that oppose abortion oppose "women's glorious destiny" in effect.
People make mistakes, so what? Does it somehow invalidate the fetus's right to life just beacause it's parents were stupid, no it doesn't. And for all we know the babies life wouldn't necceserily be complete hell, it's parents lives will be but then I guess that's babies for you
. People should be helped to raise the children they concieved out of stupidity and taught responsibility, not helped to kill them, before bieng sent out into the world once more to make the same mistake once-more.
QUOTE(Dantrag @ Aug 4 2005, 07:02 AM)
So the child is somehow less human than the mother? You speak of ruining the mother's life, but nothing is said of the child that was murdered. Your rights end when they step over mine. Same concept with abortion. Why is the mother's right to live so much more important than the baby's? Because they are a different age? Size? Sounds an awful lot like discrimination to me.
well I guess my viw differs somewhat. I think when the child isn't even a child yet, but no more then an embryo. not selfaware. in those cases I think Abortion should be allowed yes.
yes you are preventing a life from developing by this abortion, but I think the alternative might be worse.
unwanted children have a tendency to be neglected or even put up for adoption, or abused. and more.
which isn't even always just the case with unwanted children.
I went through an abortion with an old girlfriend. She was officially barren (98.8% in fact) due to polyscistic (sp) ovaries. However, she became pregnant through some absolute fluke and we decided to abort. It was a simply that we were too young to be responsible for a child, we did not have monetary support needed to support the 3 of us and to top it off our lives were fairly seperate as we lived around 80 miles from each other.
It was not murder. I'm an ethical person. But it never crossed my mind that what we had to do was killing a person. It was not a person. Granted you can argue til you are blue in the face that it was wrong, but on that same note, you should illegalise contraception as well, as that it preventing life from being created through the process of reproduction. I do not regret the abortion. Why? Because my ex now knows she CAN have children. That it is not impossible, and that a child was not brought into the world in circumstances that would have made its upbringing incredibly tough, as well as flawed.
It was not murder. I'm an ethical person. But it never crossed my mind that what we had to do was killing a person. It was not a person. Granted you can argue til you are blue in the face that it was wrong, but on that same note, you should illegalise contraception as well, as that it preventing life from being created through the process of reproduction. I do not regret the abortion. Why? Because my ex now knows she CAN have children. That it is not impossible, and that a child was not brought into the world in circumstances that would have made its upbringing incredibly tough, as well as flawed.
QUOTE(Alexander @ Aug 4 2005, 12:10 PM)
well I guess my viw differs somewhat. I think when the child isn't even a child yet, but no more then an embryo. not selfaware. in those cases I think Abortion should be allowed yes.
yes you are preventing a life from developing by this abortion, but I think the alternative might be worse.
unwanted children have a tendency to be neglected or even put up for adoption, or abused. and more.
which isn't even always just the case with unwanted children.
yes you are preventing a life from developing by this abortion, but I think the alternative might be worse.
unwanted children have a tendency to be neglected or even put up for adoption, or abused. and more.
which isn't even always just the case with unwanted children.
That unwanted children have a tendancy to have a bad time is clearly not a good thing, but surely the responsability for this lies on the heads of society (ie us all as a corporate group). Abortion does not solve the underlying problems with society that
a) deems some children unwanted
punishes them for it directly or inderectly.c) fails to support them.
Abortion may elimate through violance a large number of unwanted children, but it doesn't solve the underlying problems, indeed it even helps to reinforce them, by offlaying the consequences. You're "solving" the symptoms without the causes. If people are encouraged to think in terms of wanted and unwanted children which any society that practices abortion does, then you're actually creating large numbers unwanted children, which are then summererily disposed of. The crisis of large numbers of unwanted children, though unpleasant in the short term, both for the children concerned and society at large, with ultimately force society to confront the root problems that created them in the first place. It's effectively sweeping the problem under the carpet rather than confronting it.
Why does self-awareness matter? If you're going to base you're concept of whether ending a human life is murder or not on whether they are presently self-aware (which is what you're doing) then everyone that is asleep can be slain with legal immunity (with exception of people that are currently dreaming) as due to the fact that the sleeping human lacks self-awareness, killing them is not murder.
Furthermore it cannot be determined by scientific means at what point "self awareness" actually developed as the concept is almost entirely subjective, and we cannot determine the exact point at which it begins, or even which animals are self-aware or not. So it would be impossable to determine the exact age up to which abortion is allowed along this basis, since you cannot judge self-awareness. All you're left with is an incoherent system I'll call "fluffy bunny morality" where you base everything on emotional reactions based on appearance. So if it looks like a "cute human baby" then we get all mushy and pass laws to protect it, while if it looks like a wierd alien sea creature or a spherical blob of cells then we kill them. No matter that the cute human baby is simply a larger "wierd alien sea creature" or "blob of cells" in a different shaps. Indeed pysically all of us are simply immensely enlarged blobs of cells in a humanoid shape anyway.
Darkwing, money is not an excuse to kill. You can't kill other humans on the basis of financial incoveniance and difficulty. You hurt my wallet, so die. You're life isn't going to be as brilliant as the next person, so I guess you'll have to die. The ethical logic is pretty dispicable in my opinion. You can quite easily apply that logic to all sort of situations where people are financially dependant.
Where did you get the idea I opposed contraception from? Both the sperm and the eggs are cells derogative from the mother and father respectably and their death doesn't kill the organism from which they derive. Same as skin cells are discarded every day, they do not constitute a human life in themselves, unless you create a clone out of them I guess. In the right conditions they combine their DNA and "declare indedendance" of their source entities and begin to grow as such. The only logical point to say each human life begins is a conception. Hence what goes on before conception is in the context of this debate irrelevant. This is a debate about the ethics of abortion, not those of contraception.
Where did you get the idea I opposed contraception from? Both the sperm and the eggs are cells derogative from the mother and father respectably and their death doesn't kill the organism from which they derive. Same as skin cells are discarded every day, they do not constitute a human life in themselves, unless you create a clone out of them I guess. In the right conditions they combine their DNA and "declare indedendance" of their source entities and begin to grow as such. The only logical point to say each human life begins is a conception. Hence what goes on before conception is in the context of this debate irrelevant. This is a debate about the ethics of abortion, not those of contraception.
Its extremely easy to take the moral high ground on something that seems so black and white that its obvious. Unfortunately it is absolutely not black and white and is far from obvious.
Simplifying it with a 'oh you cost money so we'll have to kill you' is incredibly insulting as well as naive considering we were not putting ourselves first. We knew that no matter what we did, the child's life was going to be miserable. What right did we have to have a child knowing its life would be troubled from the offset. I do not agree that its a 'life' from conception. It is simply a combination of elements that grow to create life. At the time of abortion, it was not a child. Saying that because its not some other species and therefore it must be human is clearly flawed as it is still in dispute. If it was so cut and dried, then it would be illegal and it would be murder.
Simplifying it with a 'oh you cost money so we'll have to kill you' is incredibly insulting as well as naive considering we were not putting ourselves first. We knew that no matter what we did, the child's life was going to be miserable. What right did we have to have a child knowing its life would be troubled from the offset. I do not agree that its a 'life' from conception. It is simply a combination of elements that grow to create life. At the time of abortion, it was not a child. Saying that because its not some other species and therefore it must be human is clearly flawed as it is still in dispute. If it was so cut and dried, then it would be illegal and it would be murder.
That's a sad story, Dark, and I'm sorry you had to go through that.
Slayer of Cliffracers- What an astonishing thing to say. This is very much like the pro-life crowd, you care about the child until it's born, then it's all right if it's parents don't have much money. Would you rather the child be brought into the world, then put in a homeless shelter, or given to a foster family?
Slayer of Cliffracers- What an astonishing thing to say. This is very much like the pro-life crowd, you care about the child until it's born, then it's all right if it's parents don't have much money. Would you rather the child be brought into the world, then put in a homeless shelter, or given to a foster family?
somehow you (slayer) make it sound like if every country would legalise it, then we would have as many abortion clinics as we have banks now, one on every corner.
I think you're thinking way too easily on this. and Dw's example might be the perfect one. and could be compared to many others, people don't do that with a light heart, they don't choose to abort a child with a light heart, nor does someone choose to have a baby on a light heart,
something as monumental and significant as this (getting a child I mean), should be well thought of before you do it. and if a child is conceived because of an accident, then what's worse? letting it grow up with unloving parents and letting it suffer simply for being, or aborting it and sparing it of all of that.
I was conceived through an accident myself, and if I then had the knowledge of what I would be put through, what I would be made to endure and what life I would have at least up untill now, and had at the same time the choice to abort, I think i would.
I think I would prefer nonexistance, to this.
and saying a life is a life and should be preserved, I think that's just trying to find a reason. like Dw said, taking the moral high ground.
I think you're thinking way too easily on this. and Dw's example might be the perfect one. and could be compared to many others, people don't do that with a light heart, they don't choose to abort a child with a light heart, nor does someone choose to have a baby on a light heart,
something as monumental and significant as this (getting a child I mean), should be well thought of before you do it. and if a child is conceived because of an accident, then what's worse? letting it grow up with unloving parents and letting it suffer simply for being, or aborting it and sparing it of all of that.
I was conceived through an accident myself, and if I then had the knowledge of what I would be put through, what I would be made to endure and what life I would have at least up untill now, and had at the same time the choice to abort, I think i would.
I think I would prefer nonexistance, to this.
and saying a life is a life and should be preserved, I think that's just trying to find a reason. like Dw said, taking the moral high ground.
The elderly people of most of the world will start to outnumber the young.
When this happens, the labor force will go down and the economies will do a backwards flip.
Even China, with it's one child law, will start to lose some of it's work force.
Other countries, such as India on the other hand, will have a younger more durable work force than us.
We need more youngsters, and abortion helps do the opposite.
When this happens, the labor force will go down and the economies will do a backwards flip.
Even China, with it's one child law, will start to lose some of it's work force.
Other countries, such as India on the other hand, will have a younger more durable work force than us.
We need more youngsters, and abortion helps do the opposite.
LOL gamer,
I hardly doubt there will be a population decline any time in the near future. The worlds TFR (Total Fertility rate) is currently above 2.1, meaning that the world's population will continue to grow and that the number of elderly will not overcome the number infants born in a year. Abortion does not affect the population of the world that much.
Also funny that you should bring in the elderly. since they are consiered to be part of the dependency ratio. this means they do not contribute to the workforce and instead put a burden on the labor force.
So i highly doubt we will be seeing inversed population pyramids due to abortion.
wow who would have known that AP human geography would come in handy.
I hardly doubt there will be a population decline any time in the near future. The worlds TFR (Total Fertility rate) is currently above 2.1, meaning that the world's population will continue to grow and that the number of elderly will not overcome the number infants born in a year. Abortion does not affect the population of the world that much.
Also funny that you should bring in the elderly. since they are consiered to be part of the dependency ratio. this means they do not contribute to the workforce and instead put a burden on the labor force.
So i highly doubt we will be seeing inversed population pyramids due to abortion.
wow who would have known that AP human geography would come in handy.
Read my posts before making assumptions that I don't care about the children once their born stargazey. I was simply pointing out that by making abortion legal you are adressing the symptoms, that is the miserable lives of the children involved by killing them, without having to deal with the problems, ie poverty, lack of social support, lack of affordable family housing etc. Sweeping problems under the carpet in a highly unethical way simply hides the problem by allieviating the symptoms. How likely are people to allieviate the problems faced by large segmants of society, if the blame is placed on their heads for allowing their own children to live. Banning abortions effectively forces people to either let them suffer or take action, by causing the lives of those who the pro-abortion crowd basicly say should be killed by their parents to avoid them having to face the 'horrid miserable world''. It encourages them to help these people rather than kill them (in an ideal world that is).
On the 'they will not be loved and hence their lives will be misrable argument' whose to say that there parents won't love them when they finally are born anyway. Emotions are fickle afterall and should neither be trusted or endowed with legal power. Many go through periods of uncertainty and end up loving their "unwanted" children even though they could easily have decided to abort them. But the very existance of abortion encourages people to think in terms of "wanted" and "unwanted" babies rather than treating all as equal. People should be encouraged to raise all children they concieve to the best of their ability and society at large should help them, not encouraged to decide whether or not they want them, as though this is somehow relevent.
Whether they initially wanted the child is utterly and completely irrelevant and it is obviously not fair or moral to discriminate between two groups of humans selected on the basis of arbiterily decided criteria, to which anyone could be assigned to on the whim of their mother and then murder one camp, while letting the other group live.
Remember noone is seriously going to try and improve the lives of those who are so devalued that it's societally expected for their parents to have them executed, only by facing the problem face on and actively putting efforts into making the lives of these children better can we get anywhere. You cannot help the dead, only the living. Those who attempt to shy away from the problem by advocating abortion are not only un-ethical but also frankly cowardly aswell. Only the symptoms can motivate people to face up to the disease.
This is the harsh and somewhat unpallatable truth.
On the 'they will not be loved and hence their lives will be misrable argument' whose to say that there parents won't love them when they finally are born anyway. Emotions are fickle afterall and should neither be trusted or endowed with legal power. Many go through periods of uncertainty and end up loving their "unwanted" children even though they could easily have decided to abort them. But the very existance of abortion encourages people to think in terms of "wanted" and "unwanted" babies rather than treating all as equal. People should be encouraged to raise all children they concieve to the best of their ability and society at large should help them, not encouraged to decide whether or not they want them, as though this is somehow relevent.
Whether they initially wanted the child is utterly and completely irrelevant and it is obviously not fair or moral to discriminate between two groups of humans selected on the basis of arbiterily decided criteria, to which anyone could be assigned to on the whim of their mother and then murder one camp, while letting the other group live.
Remember noone is seriously going to try and improve the lives of those who are so devalued that it's societally expected for their parents to have them executed, only by facing the problem face on and actively putting efforts into making the lives of these children better can we get anywhere. You cannot help the dead, only the living. Those who attempt to shy away from the problem by advocating abortion are not only un-ethical but also frankly cowardly aswell. Only the symptoms can motivate people to face up to the disease.
This is the harsh and somewhat unpallatable truth.
Well, I'm not sure about this whole thing, since I had never experienced pregnancy nor never had an abortion.
But, I think the woman/girl should at least get to choose. I heard that 'protection' is not fool-proof and accidents happen. Some people just keeping having babies no matter what they try to do to prevent it. *shrugs*
Anyway, I support abortion at the very beginning, before the baby is not even formed much yet.
Oh! I've heard that some girls will do abortion in dangerous ways, such as using knitting needles (and I think coat hangers, not sure?), endangering themselves in the process.
Also, I worry if the mother keeps the baby, what happens if the mother/father/family is abusive? Or the family just hates the kid?
What if the family is too poor to even feed the developing child? Or if the family lives in a very poor, cruel and violent neighborhood? That would be much more sad...
(After all, believe or not, America does have homeless/poor people. And child abuse does happen.)
Anyway, I vote abortion legal to some extent, since this world is way too over-populated, and I hate it when people care more about the unborn baby than the mental/emotional/physical being of living, breathing adults, pregnant mothers in particular.
This is my opinion, of course.
But, I think the woman/girl should at least get to choose. I heard that 'protection' is not fool-proof and accidents happen. Some people just keeping having babies no matter what they try to do to prevent it. *shrugs*
Anyway, I support abortion at the very beginning, before the baby is not even formed much yet.
Oh! I've heard that some girls will do abortion in dangerous ways, such as using knitting needles (and I think coat hangers, not sure?), endangering themselves in the process.
Also, I worry if the mother keeps the baby, what happens if the mother/father/family is abusive? Or the family just hates the kid?
What if the family is too poor to even feed the developing child? Or if the family lives in a very poor, cruel and violent neighborhood?
That would be much more sad... (After all, believe or not, America does have homeless/poor people. And child abuse does happen.)
Anyway, I vote abortion legal to some extent, since this world is way too over-populated, and I hate it when people care more about the unborn baby than the mental/emotional/physical being of living, breathing adults, pregnant mothers in particular.
This is my opinion, of course.
QUOTE(MerGirl @ Aug 4 2005, 06:36 PM)
Anyway, I vote abortion legal to some extent, since this world is way too over-populated, and I hate it when people care more about the unborn baby than the mental/emotional/physical being of living, breathing adults, pregnant mothers in particular.
This is my opinion, of course.
This is my opinion, of course.
So let's just go sacrifice ourselves to uncrowd the world, instead of putting others in front of us on the butcher line.
If it endangers a life, your going to lose one anyway. Which would you rather lose, the baby who has years of life and productivity ahead of him or someone who has already gone through half of their life.
I ask myself "Would I want to meet the same fate as the baby that is being aborted."
Just my opinion.
QUOTE(gamer10 @ Aug 4 2005, 07:46 PM)
So let's just go sacrifice ourselves to uncrowd the world, instead of putting others in front of us on the butcher line.
If it endangers a life, your going to lose one anyway. Which would you rather lose, the baby who has years of life and productivity ahead of him or someone who has already gone through half of their life.
I ask myself "Would I want to meet the same fate as the baby that is being aborted."
Just my opinion.
If it endangers a life, your going to lose one anyway. Which would you rather lose, the baby who has years of life and productivity ahead of him or someone who has already gone through half of their life.
I ask myself "Would I want to meet the same fate as the baby that is being aborted."
Just my opinion.
Well, I'd rather lose the thing that hasn't developed anything than an already productive member of society.
Then again, I do not I should be talking since I'm not pregnant nor ever had an abortion. I think those women who are pregnant and/or have had abortion should speak up!
Seriously, what do a bunch of male presidents know about pregnancy? Let alone me, a young not-pregnant girl? Again, I just wanted to chime in my two-cents.
You forget there are fathers too.
They don't have the experience of pregnancy, but the child is also theirs.
There should be a nation wide vote of married people to determine the decision in the U.S.
*shrugs* That's enough of this topic for me.
They don't have the experience of pregnancy, but the child is also theirs.
There should be a nation wide vote of married people to determine the decision in the U.S.
*shrugs* That's enough of this topic for me.
QUOTE(gamer10 @ Aug 4 2005, 08:01 PM)
You forget there are fathers too.
They don't have the experience of pregnancy, but the child is also theirs.
There should be a nation wide vote of married people to determine the decision in the U.S.
*shrugs* That's enough of this topic for me.
They don't have the experience of pregnancy, but the child is also theirs.
There should be a nation wide vote of married people to determine the decision in the U.S.
*shrugs* That's enough of this topic for me.
Shoot! I forgot about the fathers too! (At least, the loyal ones, anyway). *slaps forehead* Well, I'm not sure if they should have more of a say or not. Well, like all marriage fights, they will have to discuss this kind of decision seriously, and see all of the pros and cons of either descision and the long-term effects.
Also, not just married people, but what about single mothers, too?
*shrugs* Yeah, this is enough of this subject for me, too. I just wanted to get some things off of my chest right now. Especially after my bad day at school today.
Honestly, if somebody told me before I was born, that I had two choices :
1. I could be aborted and never live a life.
2. I could be born, but have a bad life.
I would choose number two. Because nobody's life is all bad, and you would never know if the good times were worth it or not.
I think that saying that the baby would have a bad life is a horrible justification for killing it. If that's your only reason, adoption is obviously the better choice. That way if the mother (or father) isn't ready, then they can give the baby to another, giving the baby life and the parents don't have the tough responsibility of rasing a child.
And for those that say the embryo isn't human, think of it this way. Did you not look like that before you were born? Did every human being not look like that before it was born? Is the DNA not human? So if it isn't another kind of creature, and every human was an embryo at one point in time, is it human?
Answer key : yes. yes. yes. yes.
1. I could be aborted and never live a life.
2. I could be born, but have a bad life.
I would choose number two. Because nobody's life is all bad, and you would never know if the good times were worth it or not.
I think that saying that the baby would have a bad life is a horrible justification for killing it. If that's your only reason, adoption is obviously the better choice. That way if the mother (or father) isn't ready, then they can give the baby to another, giving the baby life and the parents don't have the tough responsibility of rasing a child.
And for those that say the embryo isn't human, think of it this way. Did you not look like that before you were born? Did every human being not look like that before it was born? Is the DNA not human? So if it isn't another kind of creature, and every human was an embryo at one point in time, is it human?
Answer key : yes. yes. yes. yes.
Like i've said before. Its easy to argue both for and against because most if not all of you have the luxury of waxing lyrical.
Trust me, when you are put in a position when a decision like this has to be taken, you don't toss a coin. You go with what you believe to be the best thing to do. Its not cowardly. Its not irresponsible. Its just a decision that had to be made.
However, because we all have different ethical views on this, i'm just going to agree to disagree. But if you cannot respect the ethical views held by those which differ from your own, then you only portray yourself as apathetic to those actually involved.
I'm signing off of this topic. But i will be keeping an eye on it so that it doesn't get out of hand.
Trust me, when you are put in a position when a decision like this has to be taken, you don't toss a coin. You go with what you believe to be the best thing to do. Its not cowardly. Its not irresponsible. Its just a decision that had to be made.
However, because we all have different ethical views on this, i'm just going to agree to disagree. But if you cannot respect the ethical views held by those which differ from your own, then you only portray yourself as apathetic to those actually involved.
I'm signing off of this topic. But i will be keeping an eye on it so that it doesn't get out of hand.
[quote=Alexander,Aug 4 2005, 06:49 PM]
I was conceived through an accident myself, and if I then had the knowledge of what I would be put through, what I would be made to endure and what life I would have at least up untill now, and had at the same time the choice to abort, I think i would.
I think I would prefer nonexistance, to this.
[/quote]
Awwwww...
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 03:39 PM]
Hence what goes on before conception is in the context of this debate irrelevant.
[/quote]
I disagree.
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 10:38 PM]
Those who attempt to shy away from the problem by advocating abortion are not only un-ethical but also frankly cowardly aswell. Only the symptoms can motivate people to face up to the disease.
This is the harsh and somewhat unpallatable truth.
[/quote]
Two things.
1:
[quote=Epy,Aug 3 2005, 05:49 PM]
Please, folks. Avoid all manners of unnecessary hostility. We've had quite enough of that already.
That includes putting words or entire sentences in caps (annoying, rude and unncecessary), "smirky sarcasm", challanging others to prove you wrong in a negative tone and putting words in other people's mouths.
These discussion and debate threads (any thread here, really) share a goal to allow people to share and argue their views without being afraid have them be met with insults or be patronized.
Respect other people's oppinions, faulty as they may be from your view. Argue your own views sensibly and politely. Thanks.
[/quote]
Feel free to debate, but don't: I) Insult people, II) Claim that you are right and no one should argue with you.
2.Given the following two choices: I) To have an unpleasant life with a child who would also have an unpleasant life and with a woman who I do not love (she would also, normally, have an unpleasant life) and II) To have a pleasant life with a child who would also have a pleasant life and with a woman who I love, I'll choose II.
Why do I choose II? Well:
a) I'll make three people happy instead of making three people unhappy.
b) I usually don't do things that I'm sure will not yield satisfactory results. I'm not an optimist - I don't think that everything will turn out OK.
I know what I can do and what I can't do. And if I can't do something properly, I'd rather just not do it. At all.
An ideology thing.
---
Would I regret it? Certainly. Would I ever want to change my decision? No.
Now comes the matter of adoption. I'd regret adoption more than anything.
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
It's kind of emotive to put it in these terms, but even the rhetoric of abortion is eerily similer to the rhetoric of the Nazi's in many ways, the main difference is that they've substituted "glorious racial destiny" for "women's right to choose", in other words those that oppose abortion oppose "women's glorious destiny" in effect.
[/quote]
In my humble opinion, comparing those two things is like comparing kids who keep accidentally throwing a ball in a neighbor's yard with: terrorists.
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
Does it somehow invalidate the fetus's right to life just beacause it's parents were stupid, no it doesn't.
I assume that the parents are stupid because:
[quote=Stargazey,Aug 3 2005, 02:56 AM]
Condoms are not foolproof, nor are birth control pills.
[/quote]
---
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
before bieng sent out into the world once more to make the same mistake once-more.
And how are you sure they'll make the same mistake again?
[quote=gamer10,Aug 5 2005, 02:46 AM]
someone who has already gone through half of their life.
[/quote]
Half? So 15 year old girls who get pregnant can only live up to 30 years?
[quote=Dantrag,Aug 5 2005, 07:15 AM]
Because nobody's life is all bad, and you would never know if the good times were worth it or not.
[/quote]
One day of happiness is not worth 364 of unhappiness.
I was conceived through an accident myself, and if I then had the knowledge of what I would be put through, what I would be made to endure and what life I would have at least up untill now, and had at the same time the choice to abort, I think i would.
I think I would prefer nonexistance, to this.
[/quote]
Awwwww...
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 03:39 PM]
Hence what goes on before conception is in the context of this debate irrelevant.
[/quote]
I disagree.
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 10:38 PM]
Those who attempt to shy away from the problem by advocating abortion are not only un-ethical but also frankly cowardly aswell. Only the symptoms can motivate people to face up to the disease.
This is the harsh and somewhat unpallatable truth.
[/quote]
Two things.
1:
[quote=Epy,Aug 3 2005, 05:49 PM]
Please, folks. Avoid all manners of unnecessary hostility. We've had quite enough of that already.
That includes putting words or entire sentences in caps (annoying, rude and unncecessary), "smirky sarcasm", challanging others to prove you wrong in a negative tone and putting words in other people's mouths.
These discussion and debate threads (any thread here, really) share a goal to allow people to share and argue their views without being afraid have them be met with insults or be patronized.
Respect other people's oppinions, faulty as they may be from your view. Argue your own views sensibly and politely. Thanks.
[/quote]
Feel free to debate, but don't: I) Insult people, II) Claim that you are right and no one should argue with you.
2.Given the following two choices: I) To have an unpleasant life with a child who would also have an unpleasant life and with a woman who I do not love (she would also, normally, have an unpleasant life) and II) To have a pleasant life with a child who would also have a pleasant life and with a woman who I love, I'll choose II.
Why do I choose II? Well:
a) I'll make three people happy instead of making three people unhappy.
b) I usually don't do things that I'm sure will not yield satisfactory results. I'm not an optimist - I don't think that everything will turn out OK.
I know what I can do and what I can't do. And if I can't do something properly, I'd rather just not do it. At all.
An ideology thing.
---
Would I regret it? Certainly. Would I ever want to change my decision? No.
Now comes the matter of adoption. I'd regret adoption more than anything.
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
It's kind of emotive to put it in these terms, but even the rhetoric of abortion is eerily similer to the rhetoric of the Nazi's in many ways, the main difference is that they've substituted "glorious racial destiny" for "women's right to choose", in other words those that oppose abortion oppose "women's glorious destiny" in effect.
[/quote]
In my humble opinion, comparing those two things is like comparing kids who keep accidentally throwing a ball in a neighbor's yard with: terrorists.
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
Does it somehow invalidate the fetus's right to life just beacause it's parents were stupid, no it doesn't.
I assume that the parents are stupid because:
[quote=Stargazey,Aug 3 2005, 02:56 AM]
Condoms are not foolproof, nor are birth control pills.
[/quote]
---
[quote=Slayer of Cliffracers,Aug 4 2005, 11:48 AM]
before bieng sent out into the world once more to make the same mistake once-more.
And how are you sure they'll make the same mistake again?
[quote=gamer10,Aug 5 2005, 02:46 AM]
someone who has already gone through half of their life.
[/quote]
Half? So 15 year old girls who get pregnant can only live up to 30 years?
[quote=Dantrag,Aug 5 2005, 07:15 AM]
Because nobody's life is all bad, and you would never know if the good times were worth it or not.
[/quote]
One day of happiness is not worth 364 of unhappiness.
So we should kill everyone who is poor and whose life is going to be less than 100% perfect. Fine logic for mass murder I guess. We have free will folks. We don't have to make other people's lives miserable nor do we have to kill them to do it, it all lies ultimately on the shoulders of all. Stop trying to decide which shade of black is blackest and my fellow pro-lifers please stop debating as though the purpose of this debate is to do just that. Sure the world sucks, but it doesn't have too, we made it that way and it solves nothing basing our belief systems on a depressive, determanistic fatalism directly inspired by the handiwork of our own evils. And the arguments of the pro-abortion crowd unfortunately appear to be based upon just this dark fatalism. We cannot make the world the better place by becoming murderers, evil feeds off evil.
And by what definition is the deliberate and pre-meditated killing of a human fetus 'developed' or not not murder. Is the human fetus not a human or am I missing something?
And by what definition is the deliberate and pre-meditated killing of a human fetus 'developed' or not not murder. Is the human fetus not a human or am I missing something?
please don't refer to yourself as the advocate for society, it is not WE that choose to have an abortion, it is the choice of the two individuals involved. And for free will, you would be willing to compromise the free will of that couple who wishes to have an abortion.
and...
WTF O.o please don't fancy up you sentence with elaborate words, it can be just as efficiently administered through a shorter, and simpler straightforwards approach.
and...
QUOTE
Sure the world sucks, but it doesn't have too, we made it that way and it solves nothing basing our belief systems on a depressive, determanistic fatalism directly inspired by the handiwork of our own evils.
WTF O.o please don't fancy up you sentence with elaborate words, it can be just as efficiently administered through a shorter, and simpler straightforwards approach.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.