I was wondering, is there a consensus already on where the library will be placed? (In the wilderness or in a city?) If I may vent my opinion here, I'm for the wilderness idea. I think it makes a lot more sense; because:

- It seems a bit dangerous to hide what could be the largest group of outlawed literature in the Empire right underneath a heavily guarded city.

- The chances of being discovered are a lot smaller.

- A lot of people disappearing in one alley or basement might rouse suspiscion in a large settlement. But who cares when an unsignificant traveller leaves town and goes into the wilderness? It happens all the time.

- Making huge open halls and rooms under the ground in cities would threaten structural integrity of the buildings above.

- Far from civilisation, scholars could easily attend their studies without being disturbed.

- In the wild, the library could be extended endlessly.

One final comment, instead of building "in the forest" has anyone thought of a more mountainous environment? It's a known fact that Oblivion will have plenty of mountains (to make up for the "natural borders"). Maybe we could have the library carved into a mountain? The space that can be carved out is limitless. Light could be provided by shafts going through the mountain side (and other light sources of course). And a bit of paint and some wood can do wonders for the interior, making it as cosy as any normal building.

And last, but not least, this environment has one great advantage: Provided the entrance is well hidden, there is virtually no way of getting in without help from the inside; you can't walk through stone. Even if the Empire would send a patrol to find the location of the library, they wouldn't find it and all of it precious content would be well protected.

Well, that's my two cents.

@Adanorcil

I believe it's already been decided that it will be placed in a city yes

[quote=Alexander]@Adanorcil

I believe it's already been decided that it will be placed in a city yes [/quote]
ja, der topic ist kaput. der bibliothek ist in der town.

The library will be in a city.... which one yet, we don't know. It will be fronted by what appears to be a small book shop (or print shop), staffed by one or two NPCs. After fulfilling certain requirements, you are given access to the library, which is eccessed by a secret entrance.

The library will have most of its size underground, as a large cavern was discovered when Corryn was scouting around for locations and almost killed himself after the small courtyard behind the shop gave way (I know, it's a bit bat-cavey... but what the hell). So the shop was bought, the cavern built in and upon and the library created. Voila!

And if I hear anyone discuss why they think it should be in a forest again... *shakes fist menacingly*

I just had an epiphany that should clear up one minor discussion we were having, over whether or not Morrowind's books should be included in the library.

How about if the print shop used as a fake front for the library had them there, so it was a print shop/book shop?

[quote=Troika]I just had an epiphany that should clear up one minor discussion we were having, over whether or not Morrowind's books should be included in the library.

How about if the print shop used as a fake front for the library had them there, so it was a print shop/book shop?[/quote]

so MW books are in. good.

It IS a print shop for certain then?

also, who were you thinking as being the staff? You and Corryn obviously, the Librarian and the apprentice. But the head editors or what?

[quote=stargate525][quote=Alexander]@Adanorcil

I believe it's already been decided that it will be placed in a city yes [/quote]
ja, der topic ist kaput. der bibliothek ist in der town.[/quote]

Stadt, Stargate, not town

[quote=Alexander]@Adanorcil

I believe it's already been decided that it will be placed in a city yes [/quote]
Thank you, that's good to know.

[quote=Chumbaniya][quote=stargate525][quote=Alexander]@Adanorcil

I believe it's already been decided that it will be placed in a city yes [/quote]
ja, der topic ist kaput. der bibliothek ist in der town.[/quote]

Stadt, Stargate, not town [/quote]
right,right, school's over and my german has been put away for the summer... is 'topic' correct though?

[quote=Troika]I just had an epiphany that should clear up one minor discussion we were having, over whether or not Morrowind's books should be included in the library.

How about if the print shop used as a fake front for the library had them there, so it was a print shop/book shop?[/quote]

nice idea

was just pondering on something similar.

and I think it would be easy to get that in the mod, you'd only need to copy the text from the books either from the CS or from the imperial library.


one other thing to consider.

the size of the library, sure there are many projects being done, and many books written but when talking about a library like you've been talking about so far I really imagine it to be huge, a huge arched chamber filled to the brim with books. but given the quantity there would either be a very small arched chamber that looks filled to the brim, a very large and very empty chamber of books or a chamber filled to the brim with many duplicates.

I wonder what your thoughts are about that or if anyone has even ever considered this.

[quote=Alexander][quote=Troika]I just had an epiphany that should clear up one minor discussion we were having, over whether or not Morrowind's books should be included in the library.

How about if the print shop used as a fake front for the library had them there, so it was a print shop/book shop?[/quote]

nice idea

was just pondering on something similar.

and I think it would be easy to get that in the mod, you'd only need to copy the text from the books either from the CS or from the imperial library.


one other thing to consider.

the size of the library, sure there are many projects being done, and many books written but when talking about a library like you've been talking about so far I really imagine it to be huge, a huge arched chamber filled to the brim with books. but given the quantity there would either be a very small arched chamber that looks filled to the brim, a very large and very empty chamber of books or a chamber filled to the brim with many duplicates.

I wonder what your thoughts are about that or if anyone has even ever considered this.[/quote]

shhh. We might also sneak the daggerfall, arena, and obllivion books in there, so that would add up to well over 1000 just by themselves im betting.

You can probably get ten books on a decently sized shelf and, say, five shelves on a one-sided bookcase. So that's 20 bookcases for the entire 1000 Arena/Dag/Mor/Oblivion collection - fairly smallish ones at that. 10 if we're putting them back-to-back. We'd need a lot more than that to look more like Bodleian Library than Ottokar's.

Also, an idea came into my head. When I think of a really huge library, I think of high-arched ceilings and tall, rising bookcases stretching off towards the ceiling. Normal libraries/bookshops however have ladders to reach inaccessible shelves - how would we do that here? Hand out Levitation potions on entrance (or Telekinesis)? Of course, we could always limit it to short, stocky shelves like in Morrowind, but that's less fun and doesn't look as impressive in a huge hall.

eh, how about having the whole wall plastered with books, with a sort of "Two floors on one floor system" AKA a balcony the whole way round the wall half way up, would that work?

I'm not sure having potions or scrolls of levitation/tk would work. You would have to regen them somehow and I don't know if that is possible or not. Perhaps having an NPC who sells those spells cheaply could work, but then you have to have the appropriate skill.

Does anyone know if you can make ladders in the CS? I know there were no ladders in MW, but you should be able to make a really steep staircase that you can see through so it looks like a ladder. I also like the idea of vaulted ceilings and tall bookcases or a two story room with a balcony wrapping all around.

A balcony would work - but only around the walls. Depending on how wide the room is, there would probably still be a few shelves in the middle... then again it could be done sort of more upwards - have tall circular halls that rise up in four or five balconies at a time; would look very nice when you're standing at the bottom and looking up at the walls of books rising up into the darkness above

I think that a library ladder could easily be modelled. Afterwards, it can probably be scripted to move the player upwards when he collides with it. (There even are collision detection functions in Morrowind.)

[quote=KhabaLox]I'm not sure having potions or scrolls of levitation/tk would work. You would have to regen them somehow and I don't know if that is possible or not. Perhaps having an NPC who sells those spells cheaply could work, but then you have to have the appropriate skill.
[/quote]


or maybe after showing your members card at the door, you get a special item of some kind with a levitate spell enchanted.

and of course disabling teleporting to make sure no one can leave with that ring, then when you check out of the library you have to give back the ring else the door won't open,

a simple yet effective solution,.

[quote=Alexander]
or maybe after showing your members card at the door, you get a special item of some kind with a levitate spell enchanted.

and of course disabling teleporting to make sure no one can leave with that ring, then when you check out of the library you have to give back the ring else the door won't open,

a simple yet effective solution,.[/quote]

perhaps we worry about that later once we actually get that many books yes?


I'm actually partial to a balcony with spiral staircases myself.

So is everyone happy with what has been discussed over the main hall and the front 'cover', considering how everyone seems to be moving onto to other subjects...

But spirakl staircases, and balconies, are always good ideas, and I say the more we cram into the library, the better it will be!

And a definite thumbs up to ladders, although it may not be necessary for them to be functional... If we don't end up with a vast amount of books, we could just have a fake upper section of books, just to give the appearance of more books...

Not necessarily fake... just duplicates, why?

Because I just can't wait to go in, cast an area 500 fireball and see them all fly in a glorious, Havok imbued, avalanche all around me

Then again, we might have framerate issues if that were the case :embarrassed:

[quote=9of9]Not necessarily fake... just duplicates, why?

Because I just can't wait to go in, cast an area 500 fireball and see them all fly in a glorious, Havok imbued, avalanche all around me

Then again, we might have framerate issues if that were the case :embarrassed:[/quote]
hmmm, sounds fun.

troika, so what WAS discussed over the front cover and the main hall?

about the ladders thing. We cannot have ladders for every single piece of wall, that would cram up the library, and we would end up not being able to actually able to get to the bottom part of the books.

So we would have to have about one ladder per wall, right? So we would have to make the ladder moveable in order for us to be able to get to the rest of the upper books. This is not a hard thing consideing that OB has a physics engine (phew!), but it is something I thought should be brought up.

as for the balconies. we cannot have ladders in conjunction with balconies. So the layout could be that half the rooms have balconies and half have ladders. perhaps in a routine way, which would make things look nicer.

[quote=vaanic~one]about the ladders thing. We cannot have ladders for every single piece of wall, that would cram up the library, and we would end up not being able to actually able to get to the bottom part of the books.

So we would have to have about one ladder per wall, right? So we would have to make the ladder moveable in order for us to be able to get to the rest of the upper books. This is not a hard thing consideing that OB has a physics engine (phew!), but it is something I thought should be brought up.

as for the balconies. we cannot have ladders in conjunction with balconies. So the layout could be that half the rooms have balconies and half have ladders. perhaps in a routine way, which would make things look nicer.[/quote]

maybe a half balcony? Sorta like the one in Beauty and the Beast? I think I could pull that off.

[quote=vaanic~one]about the ladders thing. We cannot have ladders for every single piece of wall, that would cram up the library, and we would end up not being able to actually able to get to the bottom part of the books.

So we would have to have about one ladder per wall, right? So we would have to make the ladder moveable in order for us to be able to get to the rest of the upper books. This is not a hard thing consideing that OB has a physics engine (phew!), but it is something I thought should be brought up.

as for the balconies. we cannot have ladders in conjunction with balconies. So the layout could be that half the rooms have balconies and half have ladders. perhaps in a routine way, which would make things look nicer.[/quote]

As I mentioned before - balconies can in the end only go around walls. Depending on the size of the hall we could have balconies going up walls, yet we would still have space for a few tall bookshelves in the middle of it all. Hence, still the need for ladders of some sort.

[quote="9of9"][quote=vaanic~one]
As I mentioned before - balconies can in the end only go around walls. Depending on the size of the hall we could have balconies going up walls, yet we would still have space for a few tall bookshelves in the middle of it all. Hence, still the need for ladders of some sort.[/quote]

Aha! that solves it!

Troika, I love the idea for printing the old books as the front for the library. That'll be really easy to pull off as well. Just a bunch of copy and pasting.

I like the balcony thing as well. Perhaps a door to enter the main library, and at the opposite end is a set of staiors, leading to the second floor, which is only partial, as that is where the balconies are. So it'd look perhaps a bit like this:

________/ _________
IB BI
IB BI
IB BI
ISSSSSSS SSSSSSSSI
___________________
S = Stairs
B = Balcony
I and _ = Walls
/ = Main Doors

Not to scale or anything, but it gets the idea across. And we could duplicate the stairs and balcony, on the second floor, at the opposite end of the first flight, if needed. Ladders seem like quite a project to me... but I have limited scripting know. Perhpas Alexander's rental ring thing. Ahwell, plenty of time to figure that stuff out.

I like that idea willybubba.

no one has said anything about how you get in in the first place so here i go! how about this?

The library is in trouble of being found out. Someone high up in the chain of command has issued an order for about 50 copies of a certain book to be met on a very strict deadline. Being as the printing press (isn't that mid-century?) is just a cover, they can only provide 15-20 of these book if the staff works round-the-clock. To gain adminsion to their myterious library, they ask you to find/steal/buy the remain 30-35 books so that they can fullfil their quota without suspicion. Upon delivery of the books (either in installments or all at the same time) you are then recognised as being worthy to enter.

Something like that...but why would they tell some random stranger about their being fake?

...

Mabye you get a option like "Threaten to reveal the library if you are not let in."

Hmm...

EDIT: I doubt it could be used but. I like the whole leveatation idea. It brings to mind and endless tunnel going up. The walls are circular and pack with books. Every now and then there is a circular balcony running all around the wall with a large hole in the middle. The balcony is filled with plushy chairs for reading. Afer each balcony, the book-lined walls keep rising. I'l make a quick sketch to show it but that's my other idea.

The library wasn't going to be a faction. However i have been exploring the thought of having to do some "Favor quests" for some guy who lives in the middle of the city and knows about the library and its treasures.

Heres what I have so far.

Lets say the Library goes in Anvil ok?

You walk around and a guy will aproach you outside a tavern. He asks you if you want to know a secret and natrualy you say "yes." So he rambles on and on about this fabled Library and its lost treasures. After a while of listening to his... information he finally tells you that he knows where this library is and how to get to it. However this information comes at a price. And that price would be a few personal favors for him.

First he tells you someone had accused him of having illegal books. So he asks you to get the guards of his back by planting a illegal book in his accusers house and telling the guards that you saw him acting wierdly in his house. They go check it out and find the book and take him to prison.

Next he wants you to get a book that he has wanted ever since his childhood but could never afford it. Apparently he still can't afford it and he wants you to steal it for him. Its in a manor on the rich side of town. Steal it and bring it back.

Last the guy gives you a simple task. Go to the park in the middle of town that night and wait for him to meet you there. Once he meets you there he takes you on walk towards the middle of town and outside a book store. He takes you inside and leads you to a wall covered by a tapestry. He moves it out of the way and behind it is a door. You both go through it and down a long stair case and go through another door.

You walk through and enter a high ceiling room with lights hanging everywhere to brighten the place up. He then walks infront of you and tells you the magic words. "Welcome to my library."

You see? The guy giving you the quests at the begining is actually the librarian and he's testing you to know if you should be the next librarian after he dies.

That i think would be the most spectacular begining to a mod like this.

[quote=jonajosa]The library wasn't going to be a faction. However i have been exploring the thought of having to do some "Favor quests" for some guy who lives in the middle of the city and knows about the library and its treasures.

Heres what I have so far.

Lets say the Library goes in Anvil ok?

You walk around and a guy will aproach you outside a tavern. He asks you if you want to know a secret and natrualy you say "yes." So he rambles on and on about this fabled Library and its lost treasures. After a while of listening to his... information he finally tells you that he knows where this library is and how to get to it. However this information comes at a price. And that price would be a few personal favors for him.

First he tells you someone had accused him of having illegal books. So he asks you to get the guards of his back by planting a illegal book in his accusers house and telling the guards that you saw him acting wierdly in his house. They go check it out and find the book and take him to prison.

Next he wants you to get a book that he has wanted ever since his childhood but could never afford it. Apparently he still can't afford it and he wants you to steal it for him. Its in a manor on the rich side of town. Steal it and bring it back.

Last the guy gives you a simple task. Go to the park in the middle of town that night and wait for him to meet you there. Once he meets you there he takes you on walk towards the middle of town and outside a book store. He takes you inside and leads you to a wall covered by a tapestry. He moves it out of the way and behind it is a door. You both go through it and down a long stair case and go through another door.

You walk through and enter a high ceiling room with lights hanging everywhere to brighten the place up. He then walks infront of you and tells you the magic words. "Welcome to my library."

You see? The guy giving you the quests at the begining is actually the librarian and he's testing you to know if you should be the next librarian after he dies.

That i think would be the most spectacular begining to a mod like this.[/quote]

Hell yeah! Love that last bit, perhaps the quests should be of the challenging type though.

As you can see im still exploring the the diffrent ways we can do the whole quest part. But im glad you like it. I intend to stick with all of the suff you just saw except the actuall quests you do. Those were just examples.

good grief, I miss three weeks and I'm really behind...


wanna revise the sorting of the books a bit. probably break up stories into fiction and non-fiction sections, and putting poems, plays, and that sort of thing in an 'Poetry & Arts' section.

also, I'm thinking ive got a semi-final version of what the main library would look like, but since I'm not at my home computer, I cant show you, so I will ahve to try and describe it.



you enter through the secret passage, and at the beginning it looks like regular sewers. nothing too special about them. Then you go through a second entrance, into a large, three story chamber. you are beneath the main floor, and a ramp leads upward. above you is a bridge that spans over the entrance. On the bridge would be any sort of 'special' items. (it's kinda like a basement garage with a first-level driveway, kinda?)

On the main floor, there are doors that lead to the different wings (fiction, non-fiction, 'forbidden' books, skillbooks, poetry & arts, and any I forgot.) each wing is unique, but still in the same sort of style. (so no japanese pagoda unless the whole thing is a pagoda)

above the main floor, connected by stairs and catwalk like things, are the main editor's offices. I really want this section to seem from below that it is floating.

below the main chamber are three rooms which I have dubbed the 'vault', 'preservation room', and 'duplication room'.

The vault is where the originals of the books are stored, warehouse style, without the fanciness of the library proper. Its protected from fire, flood, magic, the works.
this is basically to ensure that at least one copy of the books exist, regardless of discovery of the real library. a failsafe, if you will.

the preservation room deals with preserving the books in the vault. pretty straightforward.

the duplication room is where the books go to be reproduced if they are too sensitive or fragile to survive the trip up to the office front. small room, one press, two tops.


comments and requests for clarification are welcome.

I like it! And welcome back, stargate!!

well, not entirely back- Im back at my house, but in my absence the computer decided to quit working. Will try and be on more than once every two weeks though....

Actually, that could make some scripting things easier, even if being a member of this faction meant nothing more than gaining access to the actual library and being allowed to read the books.

What I mean is, you can't become a member until you've gained the trust of the guy you keep meeting. After gaining his trust (reward at the end of a quest/quest string) you become a member, and maybe we even make a little "library card" to show you are a member. Then, to gain access to the secret library we make a script on the door to enter the library that only allows you to access it if a certain condition is met.

That condition would be that you are a member of the faction.

Or, the condition could be that you must have the library card in your inventory, thus eliminating the need for the faction.

BTW, anyone know about how many books have been contributed so far.

And finally, welcome not-entirely-back stargate!

your late, I am now the 'entirely-back and kickin with a monster computer' member formerly known as stargate

And I guess we now need to think about a room for our comrades in literature who have succumb to the pullings of real life and have abandoned the cause...

Can we see the library now?

no we can't, because I, like everyone else exept bethesda, dont have a copy of the CS, and I'm not about to spend time doing it in Mw's unless I have to.

I mean the drawing or whatever...

no scanner. I might take apicture of it with my digital camera and try that...

what do you guys think about a tomb for the founders that are confirmed dead? maybe behind their statues or sommat, with a copy of their favorite book and a favorite item of theirs?

Well I like the idea.....hmm who are confirmed dead then?

I dunno, I'll have to read the founder's fates to tell...

PS, picture of floorplan coming up momentarily.

and here it is!



Alright, the things that look like little dollar signs are actually secret doors, the bars are regular doors, and each 'sqaure' is the size of one of the Mw CS editor building tiles.

you walk into that corridor on the top right, from the bottom. in each one of those small branches will be a statue of the founders, anchanted maybe or something really cool. Behind them, past the secret door, would be their tomb (if they are confirmed dead). If we wanted, we can extend that further to add in the editors or whoever we want.

that little three by three room off the long corridor is the first 'fake' room. In there will be rubbish, remnants of a printing press, etc. We'll make it look like someone already ransacked the library, and that that was all there was to it. (Like the fake room in National Treasure). In there will be a secret door, through that is another hallway, at the end of which is another secret door. the second three by three room is like the first, only a bit more intact. Still looks ransacked though. through the other secret door in THAT room, is another corridor that leads to the actual main hall of the library.

The main hall is that long room. near the door are stiars that lead up to balconies. (the little square things on the edge.) Off the balconies and the main floor are the various wings of the library where the books are. Notice the number of halls leading off the hall, 13. perhaps we should name each one after a founder? Anyways. The corridor to the north of the hall is actually a hall of the library too, it's the vault, where the most heinous writings are kept. (things like how to become a werewolf, how to become a God, things like that) the hallway to the actual vault at the end should be locked, trapped, have all sorts of fun little surprises. W can make that as long or as short as needed. I didn't draw the other halls, as there is no telling right now how big they will each need to be.

comments, concerns?

If there's anyway to fit it in, I'd like to put KhabaLox's idea of answering a riddle in somewhere? Don't know if that fits in with what you're planning, but I'll mention it anyway.


Great job, though.

In order to open a secret door you have to answer a riddle?

perhaps each of the founder's rooms are opened via a riddle presented by their statues?


Other than that, anything else to add/subtract/alter?

Thats actually a pretty good idea. If you want, I could create a few riddles incase we think deeper into that idea.

That's what I'm talking about! Also, if there was a secret, secret roo, that could be opened by a riddle.


Sure, make up a few.