I understand but I'm not talking about myself.

That's fine What I said goes for everyone. I try to read everything that's posted here, it just usually takes me a while to give comments. Partly because so many stories start and then run out of steam I've started to wait for a story to reach a certain point before I comment now. There's only so many stories you can read carefully at the same time

Exactly. I myself am guilty for giving the "awesome, great job" comment from time to time, and that just doesn't help a writer, other than motivationally. To truely get something that will really help a writer, it takes time.

It takes about five seconds to write the above quote. It takes longer to leave something meaningful and something that will actually help the author improve his/her writing skills.

Lord V., I find myself in agreement with you- even while I am one who does not comment much. I will spare everyone the usual excuses, even though they are valid in my case....

I have a fairly simple set of rules for my comments- I will not comment on something I have not read; I will say something positive in every comment; I will try to be specific about something I found creative/clever/funny/effective/etc.

Rightly or not, I tend NOT to include criticism in my comments, unless the writer specifically asks. I know there is a kind of "unwritten rule" that posters of fan-fic are requesting criticism/correction- but I am reluctant to automatically critique stories. Just one of my quirks...

Like everyone, I appreciate feedback; it is a far more "personal" indicator of folks' reactions than a simple glance at the number of views. But I also appreciate that time is the most limited resource we have. Anyway, I encourage everyone to keep writing- I know some folks like to wait until there is a certain "critical mass" to a story before they comment- and we have had some promising stories that just- stopped.

Yeah, but.. motivation means a lot.

Five seconds of someone else's time is frequently the deciding factor between whether I write a new chapter that month, or do something else more rewarding. There's a part of all of us that wants other people to enjoy what we do.

And yeah, that's definitely true as well. There are just different types of authors. Some would rather get the "awesome, nice story!" comment, and some would rather have the in-depth comments. And then there are some who do not really care whether or not they recieve any feedback at all.

Sorry, I should have clarified that in the beginning. I guess I'm more so the latter type, but that DOESN'T mean I like NOT getting feedback. It's just sort of 'whatever..." you know? Like I am happy if I get feedback, but it's not going to keep me from writing if I don't.

Perhaps it is somewhere in between.

That is, provide encouragement, but dont hide the flaws. But also dont be overbearing. Whats do I mean?

http://chorrol.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4057

kementari's post in this thread is what I mean. kem, I know you were trying to help, and you didn't do anything wrong per se, but you came across very strong, and probably scared the heck out of chiglet. Not everyone on this site has a thick skin, and the competition has brought in a lot of....opinionated members. You're not fully responsible for the rant to follow, rather several others are prompting my diatribe.

I personally chose this site because it was like a small town where everyone know each other. Now I am afraid it is beginning to devolve into a massive city where everyone calls each other 'jerks' and thinks they know how they should run things.

Elitists may think they know everything, and in certain cases they do. But it is NEVER an excuse for poor manners and a lack of civility. We are people who know and respect one another here, there is friendship and bonding that goes back months and years between members here. I realize the new folks may not realize that, and why our 'warm fuzzy caring-about-feelings' atmosphere is so strange and alien to them, but that is at least how it has been.

I don't care if you are a moderator on another site, or if you think you know how things SHOULD be run 'round these parts, if this keeps up, I am leaving Chorrol. No threats, no ultimatums, no attitude, just stating the fact that I don't like crowds, and what inevitably happens when they form.

I realize that I am one of the newcomers here, so perhaps I'm trampling over a Van Gogh without knowing it, but, really, what's so nasty about criticism? It's just words, and words are nothing more than vibrations in the air, or an electrochemical surge in your skull. If you don't appreciate the content or the nature of them, there is not a thing in this world, save your own mind, that prevents you from ignoring them. I would be honored to have Kementari, or anyone, critique my work as thoroughly as mentioned in the above post. To take the time to critique shows far greater appreciation of a work than to just provide a pat on the back with a "Smashing good job, old fellow."

Yes, that is true, KS, but there are times when people will post things that do not matter really yet they THINK they do because they are arrogant know-it-alls. (Not saying Kementari's post was that way, just trying to make a point).

Then there are times when people are trying their hardest to help, but they are just hitting on all the wrong points, you know what I mean?

If they are "arrogant know-it-alls", let them be so. Their power over you both begins and ends in the misty region of your mind. If you let them hurt you, they hurt you. If you let them help, they help.

Additionally, shutting out the criticism of others is an awfully strong sign of being one such "know-it-all". Know yourself and no criticism can shake you---it will all be of benefit.

Okay. For the informal competition we ran as a test, we asked comments to include the following.

Pick something you liked about the story.
Pick something you thought could have been better.

I'm beginning to think we need that balance. I've read the post that Blackie quoted there, and whilst some of the comments made are probably useful, there wasn't a single positive mentioned. Also I have to say, I didn't agree with all the examples used in that anyway. Let's, whenever we post a response, bear that in mind. A positive, something to be improved and our thanks to the writer for sharing their work. It won't decrease the quality of responses (if anything it'll improve them) and we get the best of both worlds there. Proper criticism without losing our warm fuzzy forum vibe that Paragenic loved so much

I never said it did hurt me. And if you read one of my previous posts you will have read that yes/no feedback doesn't effect me either way.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, redsrock. In the above quote, I meant "you" in the general sense, not specific.

No problem, I take part of the blame then. I assumed you were talking to me and BH alone. No harm no foul.

I apologize if my post came across as harsh. The fanfiction communities I'm used to had a strong underpinning of assuming that everyone's work was basically good, and therefore we tended to focus only on points that needed improvement. From here on out I'll include the positive as well, just so that nobody gets any ideas. :)

I did think Chiglet's story was fundamentally quite cute, and that it didn't have any glaring problems. The criticisms I made were pretty in-depth editorial comments, by necessity subjective in nature. I didn't mean to imply that I was right and Chiglet was wrong; rather, I thought the depth of time I took to critically examine his/her writing style would be meaningful to the author.

You know that "Golden Rule"? Chiglet's post is an example of how I'd "have people do unto me". (And at the risk of countermanding BSD-IES, I don't even mind if there's nothing positive.) <3

Is that permission? I think I'll refrain from criticizing others' posts in the future without explicit permission to do so, due to being used as an example in this little spat. I have no wish to come across as "write-ier than thou".

Yes, it is permission to you and anyone else who wishes to critique my work. I also need nothing positive said about what I write. If you wish to share something positive, feel free to do so. If you wish to share something negative, feel free to do that also. Of course, I make that statement on my own behalf; when I critique the works of others I will most certainly uphold any rule set by the moderators.

If that is indeed your position, than allow me to apologize for misunderstanding it. There have been several points of frustration on this site recently, and I did indeed misinpret your post as one of them.

Contrary to what it may have sounded like, I am not making a 'call-to-arms' or try to sound as...ridiculous as to say 'i h8 n00bs'. Adaptation certainly takes time, I was new here once as well. Ive been biting my tongue with some of the things that have been infuriatiing me, save via Pm's with a couple of friends. It is because I think the people who say things like 'this is OUR site!!' or 'I hate noobs' are ridiculous, I didnt want to end up making a horses behind of myself by saying something, though admittedly I have.

As for me, I don't give critisicms because Im not qualified. I am uncertain as to how good work could be great, and okay work could be better. I believe that everyone is doing the best they can, with something that they like doing. And to share a talent with people, to open yourself to someone elses judgement, is one of the scariest things someone could do, and I dont think that budding talent should be trampled on by boorish cads who havent the slightest regard for feelings, it needs positivity, encouragment, before it can truly be shaped and molded by editing and consensus. People are not computers, and comfort, psychology, and attitude can make or break a writer in the beggining. If I hadnt recieved positive feedback in the beggining, I would have stopped writing, I would have.

At this point in time, I am confident enough in my writing to know that there are a few people who will love your work, a lot that might think its okay, and a few that will detest it with every fiber of their being, but in the end its whether or not the writer is satisfied with the work, not the audience, unless your selling a book of course.....

Like you mentioned, I haven't exactly been here for very long, but I haven't really seen evidence of people who fit that description. Is the line between "constructive criticism" and "boorish cad" drawn at posts that don't include positive remarks, or at posts that include nothing but positive remarks? (I'm aware that the tone-free medium of the internet allows that sentence to be read in a snotty tone of voice; such is not my intent. I'm honestly curious what the expectations are. I'm already aware that further posts should include a positive commendation to the author for their efforts, instead of just assuming that such is understood.)


For the sake of argument, I would respectfully disagree that "consensus" is the way to judge whether writing is good or not. It's usually easier to grow as an artist if you simply find someone whose writing you respect - someone who clearly has a lot of talent, practice, and education on the subject - and ask them to tell you what you can be doing better. (I've already approached several people here whose work I admire with PM requests that they examine my vignettes for this reason.) A bunch of people who know you well and are concerned about hurting your feelings could say "Good work, I LOVED it," but this consensus never helps you realize what's wrong with your style.

And everyone has something wrong with their style. Published authors, even millionaire published authors*, even millionaire published authors whose books are fun to read**, can have glaring problems with their work. It's silly, not to mention the greatest of self-important attitudes, to pretend otherwise.


And KitchenSink, I just realized yours was the post I read last night. Thorough analysis incoming! :3



*Extremely poor characterization, stilted character development.
**Re-(and re- and re-)use of stale plot devices. Overuse of false-document technique.

The only thing I know is I want feedback no matter how harsh. I mean, either way the ultimate thing that will help me as a writer, you know what I mean?

First, stop thinking of any criticism as "harsh". The only thing that can be harsh is tone, or delivery. Criticism is a subjective analysis of your work; taking it as "harsh" or not is entirely up to you.

I could not agree more. Write for yourself. Post for those like yourself. Whether others are pleased or whether they are peeved by your work, it should make no difference. After all, conventionally "bad" writing can be all some anonymous reader needs to brighten an otherwise dreary day. What does a mountain of criticism matter to the mind that sees the "good" within the "bad"? Take it all in stride. If one feels the criticism to be off-key, then, by all means, ignore it. If one feels it to be spot-on, then, by all means, adapt and grow by it.

This is by no means a challenge to the old order of this board. I will graciously abide by the rules. It is simply an effort to help those that are self-conscious about their work to put things in perspective.

Ok, fine, you got me, kementari. I meant tone and delivery.

Well, there are no 'rules' per se. More like a status quo that everyone was used to, and now that has changed. For better or worse. But, stepped toes aside, I think that as long as we are discussing, we are ironing out wrinkles.

The inevitable "is criticism bad for chorrol' question has come up. The answer in an objective view is no. A gem cannot be polished without friction. The real question is, "How well are people going to receive the change?" well, this discussion is part of the answer. So far, not so well.

I still stand by my consensus theory however, not so much because I am an attention mother of mine, (a little) but rather, I like to know that I am entertaining my audience. When people feel they are reading a good story, than I in turn am happy. When I receive the positive feedback, than I know people are responding well to my work, when readership drops off, then I know I am not doing so well. I do this for the fans as much as for myself. I could write stories for myself and hoard them on a word program or somesuch, but it seem pointless to me, I feel the need to share. What is the point of a finely prepared dinner that noone will partake in?

And this attitude I have influences my view on others as well, yes. If you have a story that you think is only okay, post it anyway dammit! It just might be the best darn thing posted here ever. You'll never know unless you take that risk, and the worst thing that will happen, is that people will say they dont like it. Oh well. (Yes double-speak, 'but you said..." The preceding was encouragement.)

PS:I wasnt calling YOU a boorish cad, kem, in case you took it as that. Far from it. You strike me as quite the scholar and gentleman after my nitfit....

It would be awful to lose a member such as yourself Black Hand, especially since that would mean not being able to read up on the exploits of Sethyas Velas any more.

For my part, fair criticism can be taken as harsh criticism depending on the tone of delivery, but what is experience if not the sum of our mistakes? And who better to point out our mistakes than an observer of our actions? Thus I find criticism to be something necessary for all writers, both beginners and otherwise because otherwise we would not be able to discover our true ability.

But it truly seems that this recent competition has caused a surge of new members to join Chorrol, for good or for worse and as Black Hand says, our tight-knit community seems to be turning into a crowd. Growth need not be viewed in that light, since it can be a good thing in some cases. Some of these new members are already leaving, however (I saw a thread by someone called Paragenic saying that he/she was leaving Chorrol because he/she was fed up by the attitude of our forums).

I myself have not been active in the last few weeks (or should I say months?) because I've momentarily lost my interest in fan fiction and have been reading up on all things medieval and related to knights and the nobility.

My thoughts exactly Black Hand. I think that people should be able to share their work without fear of someone coming and cutting them down right afterwards. Don't get me wrong I think that critiques are great but its the delivery of which that can seem hostile and demeaning.

If you read what was going on in that thread carefully you'll see that Paragenic was being a bit dramatic by leaving the forums. More of a tantrum than anything I'd say.

I did not join this forum just for the contest. (I came a month after it ended.)Actually, I joined for the fan fiction after I discovered the site when I got Oblivion. I know I'm a new member and I don't mean to intrude on your little community. I just thought I'd post some of my own stories here.

Wonderful, I'd love to read them. One thing though, what kind of feedback would you like? I myself like the more critical type, but not too harsh of course.

What I'm saying is that I would love to try and give your some suggestions and advice, but if that is not what you want by all means tell me so.

I just wish to say a few friendly words to the talented writers of this forum.

You all create good stories, some of you create excellent ones and some outstanding, all according to me and my taste. This is just me and my thoughts and shall be regarded as such ok?

I have my favourites, and I think you all have. For my part I'm especially fond of stories with a complicated intrigue, relations and descriptions of the characters. Quite a few of you fellow-writers has come up with just that kind of material.

@Redsrock: You are so productive! You have a lot of stories running and that impress me, since they are all of very high quality. Keep it up, you're doing great!

@Blackie: As I've mentioned in one of your story-threads I so admire your way with words! You also created a character who I'm terribly "in love" with, Sethyas Velas. I'm so glad I'm allowed to use him in my story, so thanks a lot for that. Now you also created another one, a woman, who I think is a fascinating one, I like her a lot. All in all I'm a steady reader of your work so keep 'em coming!

@treydog: You're the one who made me start writing! The inspiration your stories have brought me is immense. We all recognize the superior quality of your writing, so there are no more words to describe it. Hopefully we will see much more of your work.

@Mallie: You're outstanding when it comes to fighting and battle scenes! You know I think that, right? You know how to build up tension and your knowledge of weapon and the technique of fighting is remarkable.

@Mr Cloudy: What is said above goes for you as well! All of it!

@BSD-IES: A professional! You can tell by the way with words! I so wish I could be a tenth as good as you are ! Therefore I'm so happy when you post nice comments on my writing.

@All the rest of you writers: You are great! You put a lot of effort in your work and I never read a boring or bad story on these boards! So I sincerely hope you will continue and spread joy to us all, because that's what you're doing!


Thank you all writers for making me happy!!

Thank you, Minque. You don't know how happy that makes me, especially coming from an excellent writer like yourself.

Why do I always get categorized in the "Others" category?

Nah, I'm not upset. I remember we talked about one of my stories some time ago (a pretty long time ago actually) Minque, and I was asking you how stories were posted on the main sit since that was my main ambition at the time. Now that story is on the main site, and I'm sure I have you to thank besides Alexander and the other mods and admins since you must have put in a good word.

You also commented on my story several times in your very characteristic style (in that warm and fuzzy manner ) and I can't help but appreciate people who discuss my work.

I also feel the same way about those writers you mentioned. Top of the line, though I believe you forgot to mention Alexander. Judging by his latest story (better said epic) he deserves to be among those writers you mentioned.

Awww Griffie! Sorry, my bad! I should naturally have given you a comment of your own! Bu please remember that I appreciate your writing, and have so all the time!

Of course Alex should be mentioned! His story Morrowind is really a masterpiece! Now...I'm sure he already knows that though!

At the risk of necroing an old thread (although can you do that with a sticky?) I'd like to revive this thing and make some general comments about a couple of stories I've been following. Hopefully I'll be able to formulate more pointed criticisms and encouragements soon, but I want to give my impressions and maybe let the authors know they are not toiling in obscurity.

Just a little disclaimer; all of this is my opinion, and if you disagree with it, I'd be more than happy to discuss.

The Fall of Lorit (Jac) - A little story which has been showing a lot of improvement. It started out a little shaky, with a lot of simple sentences, and a lot of pronoun repetition, but Jac's steadily made it better. Two things I recommend: cut down on the pronoun repetition even further (she, he, etc.) and introduce more detail. Describe how people talk, how they look, how they move, the scenery, all that jazz.

The Cover Up (Lord Veneficus) - The prologue was a bit forced, but the second chapter was quite good. I realize it's a sequel and I never read the original, but I'm already interested in Eric. I hope Veneficus keeps up the story. A suggestion for him: get us even more acquainted with the main character! I really am curious about how he'll change as his adventures take him along.

Redsrock - I hate not to comment on one particular story, but he has so many! A very prolific writer, and very consistent in his writing. One suggestion to Redsrock: your stories are very much dialogue-driven. But (and unless memory fails, I've mentioned this before) you do need to flesh out your characters by other means as well. Note that this is mostly applicable to your third-person stories; you do very well in first-person. That is my general observation, and it's meant more to give you something to think about as you review your stories; someday soon I hope to give you (and all of these other authors) more complete comments in the stories' threads.

And that's all for today. I'd like to close by thanking all of the fine authors here. Reading your work and critiquing it is incredibly helpful to my writing process and in analyzing my own writing, and I get some first-class entertainment out of it all to boot!

Thanks, Darkynd. And yeah...you pretty much nailed it on the head. Third-person has always been harder for me than first-person. I can BE descriptive, but in the past I've been described as TOO descriptive. I just need to find that balance in between.

Yes, it is very hard to find that balance. Lord knows, I myself struggle with it constantly. But you're definitely heading in the right direction; you write so much, and simply writing and reading a lot is the fastest way to get better.

And I wonder, could you possibly direct me to where it was said you used too much description? I would like to see where you came from and how your writing has changed from that, and see if I could maybe lend some insight.

Thanks, darkynd. One thing I've always struggled with was how much detail to put in. Too much and you can lose the reader. To little and you can risk leaving the reader with wanting more. I've never had a creative writing class, so I'm still trying to learn as I go and the feedback helps immensly.

Hmm...I can't seem to remember. I know it was the early part of summer, and it very possibly could have been during my first "Tales of Teir" story. *shrug* Another thing I tend to have a problem with is telling, rather than showing.

Yeah, I haven't taken one yet either. Classes are limited in being able to teach you how to write though, since it's such a personal thing. The easiest way to learn though is just read read read; and deconstruct it. Read fiction of any stripe and see what you like, what you don't like, and try to build from there.




Well, I will trawl back through your writing...although that could possibly take a while

And I think you'll often find that 'showing' and including a fair bit of detail are pretty inextricably linked. Simply telling often doesn't require a lot of depth, so if you find that you're able to push out a story incredibly fast you might want to give it a harder look than usual. That's what I've learned from experience - and what I'm still learning.

One bit of advice that I have not yet seen on this forum but would like to bring up is this: If you have the time (which you ought to if you can waste any reading on this site ) then you should always try and break down at least some part of a story and comment on it. Even this small amount of crit will help you immensely in your own writing. By breaking a story down you learn a lot about how other people approach their writing and thus glean some additional insight into how you do so with yours. Not to mention it also helps the author of the story, so it's in everyone's best interests!

Ok folks, this is my way of telling you that I do read! yes I read, one part at a time, then when I've read the parts of one story...well then there's another one! So you will get comments from me, I assure you but you're all post-machines and there's no way I'll be able to stay constantly updated ...not all the time!

But I will also tell you that there's so many wonderful stories here now, I'm deeply impressed and i find it awesome that the fanfic-section here is so lively!

Thank you all writers....I love your stories and I love you all!

I'm sure I speak for everyone when I say Thank You for having us here! You are greatly appreciated!

hey all!

Time is hard nowadays, or rather life is hard, I have absolutely not so much time to be online as I wish...so I will just say that I'll try to catch up with your wonderful stories as soon as I can...

Eventually I will get that one whole day I'll need to do it!

Lots of love to all of you

Minque <3

It took me weeks to catch up. While I was off everyone started writing like banshees. I had to read like one to catch up. Thank you Evelyn Woods!!!

Wow. I can't believe I didn't notice this. I appreciate your comments, Darkynd.

God, I have a bunch of these stories that I need to pick back up and dust off.

To all the fanfics I didn't get to read today, you're on my list. I'll be getting you when I get time next, I assure you of that.

Ok, quick post here.

First up - mALX, SubRosa, Grits and Black Hand...

Unfortunately I've been off the forums for the past year and a half (real life decided to become a nightmare), so I'm attempting to catch up on your stories. Which seeing that all of you in some regard seem to have become posting machines, (used to be your nickname Black Hand about 6 years ago if I remember correctly ), it might take me a while... I will catch up, I WILL!

Secondly:

We seem to have quite a few new writers that have appeared. Seeing as I wasn't here to welcome you when you arrived, a belated WELCOME to all of you.

Again, I will be trying my hardest to catch up on all that you've written.

*Pleads for patience and understanding*

Right then. Best get back to reading, hadn't I? Glad Minkey set up this thread now

Thanks Burnt Sierra! It is so good to see you back on here, hope the real life issues have resolved so we can see more of you!

Still catching up with a lot of stories here!

Really enjoying A New Sun Rises, Teresa of the Faint Smile, No Elves in Sovngarde... just to name a few!

I've managed to full catch up on one story, which is Jerric's story!

Still got plenty to go... but i'm loving everything

Thanks Eva !!!

Slowly catching up....

Slowly slowly....

My schedule has returned to normal now...

So much to catch up on.... I CANT WAIT!

Congrats on the new book, Elizabeth! (Still need to finish the first one ) Haha

So, my gig that was going to keep me away for a few days fell through, but I have held back on posting to my story, A Question of Fate, to avoid getting into the "I've written so much and I want people to read it now" trap. I would like to thank Acadian, mALX, and SubRosa once again for their kind comments. I have read Acadian's "Executive Summary" of Buffy's saga, mALX's Chapter Outline of Maxical's adventures, and some of SubRosa's "Previously, on Teresa..." paragraphs. While the idea of these summaries is an excellent one, I can't live on just that. Might as well ask a thief to unlock a door and then not enter the room. Since posting comments about Chapter 1 in a post that follows Chapter 203 (in Maxical's case), I am going to start posting my comments on these stories in this thread. But it will have to wait until tonight, because I am going to be late for work if I don't get moving!