Welcome to the Waiting4Oblivion Parliament!

You may ask why I gave this topic such a a name, and the answer is very simple.

Have you ever seen them Asians in their Parliament? Absolutely hysterical.

And I believe we here at W4O can successfully do better.

But on a more serious note.

---

Rules

1. Very simple, follow all W4O rules and orders, respect the moderators and administraitors, respect the members of W4O, and respect yourself.

2. Absolutely No Flaming One for Their Beliefs. Just because you do not concur with them doesn't require you to be disrespectful.

3. To keep this as neat and orderly as possible, please quote the statement you are arguing against or for. Please do not let quotes pyramid.

4. Please make posts relevent to the present topic. You can take breaks at the coffee shop across the street to ramble on.

Lets make this as enjoyable and civil as possible, thanks.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, the first topic I would like to present would be one that has been highly debated, praised, torn apart, lied about, un-fairly portrayed, and in the end a very important subject.

Topic -- The Iraqi War and It's Aftermath.

First off let me say that I support the war, and I support what G.W. did. What I don't think is right is the fact to convince (Some) of the American people to support the war, that highly un-reliable information was used. Personally I think that it was the CIA's fault, but I do believe that President Bush should have apologized about the faulty information. However, he should have also stated that for the good of the Iraqi people. we were to finish the work from Desert Storm and get rid of the evil dictator.

What do you think?

It didn't become about Saddam Hussein until they realized they were not going to find any weapons. They didn't use him as an excuse until they couldn't use the weapons as an excuse anymore. Weapons were first on the lsit for their goals. Their other goal was hunting down terrostis, and their last goal was replacing Hussein. After a while, they pulled a 1984 and pretended the WMD thing never actually existed, and that it was about Hussein, and always had been.

I support the war because Saddam had Weapons of Mass destruction. There over there in Jordan and Iran right now. He had Bio chemical weapoms that could be classified as weapons of mass destruction because of the death toll they could have caused.

He also killed many of his people just because they didn't agree with any o fhis ideas. He was a mass murderer and needed to be taken out of office.

[quote=DoomedOne]It didn't become about Saddam Hussein until they realized they were not going to find any weapons. They didn't use him as an excuse until they couldn't use the weapons as an excuse anymore. Weapons were first on the lsit for their goals. Their other goal was hunting down terrostis, and their last goal was replacing Hussein. After a while, they pulled a 1984 and pretended the WMD thing never actually existed, and that it was about Hussein, and always had been.[/quote]

But see I think is was about Saddam. What had GW's father failed to do? Finish the job in the first place. I believe that, that fueled some of Bushes desires on the invasion of Iraq. I believed that there were WMD's in Iraq, and not because of what Bush said.

I've got a question then, why do you think were still in Iraq, and do you think that we should pull out?

Because the war was never about WMDs, terrorists or Hussein. Bush lied. If we were after terrprist cells, we wouldn't be looking in Iraq. If we were after only WMDs, we would have pulled out of Iraq when there were none.

Let me give you a little history on the matter. America is not famous for spreading democracy. Under Reagen we were in favor of an oppressive dictatorship over a guy, Daniel Ortega, who came to power and in just four years of being in power made massive steps to end hunger, almost completely ended illiteracy, made sure everyone had a home, put a doctor in every town, etcetera... After four years, the contras, funded by the United States and trained by branch of the National Guard retook power in the government by basically murdering everyone who didn't support them and setting up huge firing squads. Why? Because who do you think got shafted when Ortega was in power? The US corporations, the sweat shop owners, the richest 1% of the country did.

EDIT: http://counterpunch.org/sustar07232004.html

In El Salvador for the first time the people were given a chance to elect a democratic leader. They had been through massive oppression and thought now titme was better. Only the new democratically elected leader was even more murderous and oppressive than the last. A man named Oscar Romera was put in place as archbishop, and when he saw the horrible things occurring he began to raise resistance from the streets and started preaching against the current leaders. People trained by the School of Americas (Then called the School of Assassins), a US trainig school assassinated him. Why, because the current leader of El Salvador was open to US corporations who leeched off the land.

EDIT: http://salt.claretianpubs.org/romero/romero.html

Those two are off the top of my head. I read something about like six other incidents from the Republic of Congo to the true motives of Vietnam.

Bottom line: Halliburton is making billions now and the oil fields have all been secured. The first goal of Bush's real plan has been accomplished. And now American soldiers have to deal with something natural. The insurgeants are not Hussein loyalists, they are the result of heavy religious upbringing and a lifetime of oppression. They were not oppressed just by Hussein, but by constant war. Angry at the insurgeants? Well guess who is to blame? Reagen, Bush, Clinton and Dubya.[/url]

Guys!
I must say this is interesting! You debate this in a good mature way and I will certainly follow this discussion.

Since I know too little I will not post unless I have a question or something to say that is for the benefit of the discussion.

My deep conviction is that I dont like war at all, but that can be because I live in a country that has not been in war for a very long time and my father served in the german army (marines) in WW2, and also got captured 1944 and put in an english prisoncamp at Dartmoor.

Thus I find it interesting to hear your opinions of this and it might give me some diversified opinions also.

So keep this in the nice way it is now and we´ll all learn from it.

I think the war in Iraq should never have happened. There were no WMD's and The US only started saying they wanted to "take down Hussein and free the people" after that became obvious. (please note that isn't a quote)
Also, something which i find hilarious, i'm fairly sure i read somewhere that it was the US who originally put Hussein in power, just like it was the US who gave Ossama Bin Laden andvanced CIA training.
My belief is that the whole invasion was to secure the oilfields for the US and to give the money hungry corporations another country to set up their sweatshops in

[quote=LoneWolf]
the US who originally put Hussein in power,[/quote]

I'm too sure about the US puting Hussein in power is perfectly accurate

But I will say that yes we did give weapons to Iraq when the USSR was invading.. We were trying to stop Russia from gaining another little country and more oil

[quote=LoneWolf]just like it was the US who gave Ossama Bin Laden andvanced CIA training.[/quote]

...Where did you hear this from? If so can I read it too? National Enquirer doesn't count.. =P that was a joke

[quote=LoneWolf]My belief is that the whole invasion was to secure the oilfields for the US [/quote]

Currently our oil is at the same price if not higher then the rest of the nations of the world. If were takin in all that oil where is the money going?

[quote=LoneWolf]and to give the money hungry corporations another country to set up their sweatshops in[/quote]

Do you honestly think that we are truly that bad of people? Yes maybe corporations would love to move in there but since we've been in Iraq people are paid more, are living better informed lives, setting up a democracy. It would be unwise to put a sweatshop there.

[quote=Minque]Since I know too little I will not post unless I have a question or something to say that is for the benefit of the discussion.[/quote]

Common Minque, your a smart lady, I'm sure I could use an extra oppenent to.. I wish Jona was here...


To DoomedOne: I'll reply to yours later... I've got to check up on that and my fingers hurt too...

[quote="Channler"][quote=LoneWolf]
[quote=LoneWolf]just like it was the US who gave Ossama Bin Laden andvanced CIA training.[/quote]

...Where did you hear this from? If so can I read it too? National Enquirer doesn't count.. =P that was a joke

[/quote]
Discovery channel a while back, about 3 months after the twin towers, or thereabouts

Any more concrete evidence.. They told me that Eve (first lady in the world) was black... I don't think so.. she was middle-eastern

Actaully she was African, so she would be black

Wheres the Tirgis and the Euphrates? in the Middle East, in fant pretty much Iraq...

Of course thats saying you believe what the bible says

[quote=minque]Guys!
I must say this is interesting! You debate this in a good mature way and I will certainly follow this discussion.

Since I know too little I will not post unless I have a question or something to say that is for the benefit of the discussion.

My deep conviction is that I dont like war at all, but that can be because I live in a country that has not been in war for a very long time and my father served in the german army (marines) in WW2, and also got captured 1944 and put in an english prisoncamp at Dartmoor.

Thus I find it interesting to hear your opinions of this and it might give me some diversified opinions also.

So keep this in the nice way it is now and we´ll all learn from it. [/quote]

Actually, I'm a pacifist to the core. It's extremely difficult for me to look at war with an open mind and any president that has ever engaged in war has become questionable. I respect Carter more for putting hostages in danger than I do Bush for putting tens of thousand of American soldiers' in danger for his own gain.

Lonewolf, the fact you're thinking of was that Saddam Hussein's placement in power was aided by the US in the form of money and weapons. Osama Bin Laden's CIA training was the training of Afghanistan terrorists against the USSR. My Dad was extremely pissed off and thought of the bin Laden family and thw Bush administration as some of the biggest creeps on the planet for using terrorism as a weapon. Decade and half later? bin Laden family and Bush family still get along great, now they just have a black sheep apparently :lickinglips2:

Ok Ok a new topic shall we? We've bled Iraq to death.

What do you think of the Mass murders in Sudan? I think it wrong and southern nations in africa should rise up and push back those murdering Muslims.

[quote=jonajosa]Ok Ok a new topic shall we? We've bled Iraq to death.

What do you think of the Mass murders in Sudan? I think it wrong and southern nations in africa should rise up and push back those murdering Muslims.[/quote]
Hear hear, but not because they're Muslims. I don't give crap what religion they are, it's still wrong.

[quote=Channler]Wheres the Tirgis and the Euphrates? in the Middle East, in fant pretty much Iraq...

Of course thats saying you believe what the bible says[/quote]


Time for some history

Lucy is the earliest recorded human ever found. She was born in Africa. She is basically Eve

Tigris and Euphrates are where civilization first started. That has nothing to do with the bible. Between the Tigris and Euphrates is where anthropologists theorize humans first started settling down and growing crops, husbanding animals, etcetera. Humans have been around far longer than civilization.

I know but its the Muslims who are doing it. Thast why i said muslims.

If one does not accept their faith then that one must die. They are over there killing Africans because their not muslim. Thats just dead wrong.

[quote=LoneWolf][quote=jonajosa]Ok Ok a new topic shall we? We've bled Iraq to death.

What do you think of the Mass murders in Sudan? I think it wrong and southern nations in africa should rise up and push back those murdering Muslims.[/quote]
Hear hear, but not because they're Muslims. I don't give crap what religion they are, it's still wrong.[/quote]

It still has to do with religion though. They justifiy their actions because they think their religion is right and the others are wrong. Same with Catholics in Ireland and Christians here. 99% of Muslims are fine reasonable people, same with Vhristians and Catholics and many other religions but there is this 1% that thinks radicalism and murder are the best ways to solve anything.

I know it still has to do with religion, more specifically Islam, i'm just adding that it could be any religion and i'd still think it's wrong

The people will find away. Peoples don't just sit back and watch themselves being ripped away. These mass murderings jsut started. If you look in history, it has taken time before the people have rison up in response.

(That reminded me of a speech by Shwartzenegger. He said if they didn't fix the budget problem the people of california would rise up and change it for them. Right Arnold, we're really going to revolt because you guys can't figure out how to fix a budget problem and keep the prison guard union happy at the same time.)

[quote=DoomedOne]
Time for some history

Lucy is the earliest recorded human ever found. She was born in Africa. She is basically Eve

Tigris and Euphrates are where civilization first started. That has nothing to do with the bible. Between the Tigris and Euphrates is where anthropologists theorize humans first started settling down and growing crops, husbanding animals, etcetera. Humans have been around far longer than civilization.[/quote]

Problem is, though, that they use carbon dating, which so off its not funny... "Ahh.. sir this says that its between 100000-1000 years old"
"Good, then it must be 10000 years old..."

BTW What are we talking about?

The mass murders in Sudan.

[quote=Channler][quote=DoomedOne]
Time for some history

Lucy is the earliest recorded human ever found. She was born in Africa. She is basically Eve

Tigris and Euphrates are where civilization first started. That has nothing to do with the bible. Between the Tigris and Euphrates is where anthropologists theorize humans first started settling down and growing crops, husbanding animals, etcetera. Humans have been around far longer than civilization.[/quote]

Problem is, though, that they use carbon dating, which so off its not funny... "Ahh.. sir this says that its between 100000-1000 years old"
"Good, then it must be 10000 years old..."

BTW What are we talking about?[/quote]

No, they didn't use anthropology. They used the ruins, tried to understand the language, and looked at their calanders in comparison to other civilizations.

As for Lucy, she is the oldest skeleton ever found. We're talking 3.18 million years ago, that's much longer than the 20000 years or so civilization has been around

So I´ve been reading with great interest and I think you all discuss this insofar in a nice civil way. It´s dangerous topics here it´s easy to get excited and say things you don´t mean to.


I´ll have to admit though that I in general agree with LoneWolf´s opinions....so may I be a pacifist... :goodjob:

Not you too minque! So dissapointing. But whatever. I understand.

[quote=jonajosa]Not you too minque! So dissapointing. But whatever. I understand.[/quote]

oh? then what did you think i was then? living in a country like sweden, not even being 100% swedish.....i´ll tell you the truth...i´m scared.... :shocked:

Well I'm not a pacifist, but then I dont go out looking for a fight.

I just believe that people shouldn't be murdered. I know it will never stop, but we must do what we can to stop it.

I would say (going way, way back to the Sudan part of the topic), that belief is not an excuse for murder. They use it as a reason for themselves, but there is no justification to the vast majority of people who do not follow such beliefs. In that way, we believe it to be wrong, and they believe it to be right, and nobody can do anything about it. For this reason, I would think it unwise to involve religion in international politics, as it could cause disasterous consequences.

Ok.. heres another topic, but quite a bit more funny then the rest...

What do you think about the government (US) getting angry about pictures of Saddam in the buff being shown everywhere?

Is it right? Wrong? or Inderferrent?

[quote=Elongar]I would say (going way, way back to the Sudan part of the topic), that belief is not an excuse for murder. They use it as a reason for themselves, but there is no justification to the vast majority of people who do not follow such beliefs. In that way, we believe it to be wrong, and they believe it to be right, and nobody can do anything about it. For this reason, I would think it unwise to involve religion in international politics, as it could cause disasterous consequences.[/quote]

Which is why they need democracy. It will be hard getting it to work but in the long run things wil settle down.

I havn't seen any pics of saddam that were controversial.

Well, I didn't see any pics but my father said he saw them on the news this morning. I read the article in the paper though.. It was a picture of him washing his clothes in his underwear... and people are pissed over this

[quote=Elongar]I would say (going way, way back to the Sudan part of the topic), that belief is not an excuse for murder. They use it as a reason for themselves, but there is no justification to the vast majority of people who do not follow such beliefs. In that way, we believe it to be wrong, and they believe it to be right, and nobody can do anything about it. For this reason, I would think it unwise to involve religion in international politics, as it could cause disasterous consequences.[/quote]

Extremism in any form creates a bad means. See, the idea is that radicals and extremists, whether they're radcons or revolutionaries or anything, hold a belief that they are right, and that their intentions are sound, so that no matter what their means are achieving their ends, it's justified. This is total BS. Judge not by thought, but by actions. If people simply learned that without good means you cannot have good ends then there would be so much less of this. That is why I am a pacifist, not because I think I'm right but because I may be wrong.

I can´t resist replying to this Doomedone...because imo what you just said i agree with and you said it like i would have done if i would have fiound the right words but unfortunately i did not....

[quote=DoomedOne]
Extremism in any form creates a bad means. See, the idea is that radicals and extremists, whether they're radcons or revolutionaries or anything, hold a belief that they are right, and that their intentions are sound, so that no matter what their means are achieving their ends, it's justified. This is total BS. Judge not by thought, but by actions. If people simply learned that without good means you cannot have good ends then there would be so much less of this. That is why I am a pacifist, not because I think I'm right but because I may be wrong.[/quote]

You're basically saying that, the Revolutionary War shouldn't of happened, the Civil War shouldn't of happened, Americas entrance into WW2 shouldn't off happened and many numerous other things.

Being an AGGRESSOR is wrong, retalation is another thing.

EDIT: If it isn't a to touchy subject Minque, could I ask a few questions about your father?

[quote=Channler][quote=DoomedOne]
Extremism in any form creates a bad means. See, the idea is that radicals and extremists, whether they're radcons or revolutionaries or anything, hold a belief that they are right, and that their intentions are sound, so that no matter what their means are achieving their ends, it's justified. This is total BS. Judge not by thought, but by actions. If people simply learned that without good means you cannot have good ends then there would be so much less of this. That is why I am a pacifist, not because I think I'm right but because I may be wrong.[/quote]

You're basically saying that, the Revolutionary War shouldn't of happened, the Civil War shouldn't of happened, Americas entrance into WW2 shouldn't off happened and many numerous other things.

Being an AGGRESSOR is wrong, retalation is another thing.

EDIT: If it isn't a to touchy subject Minque, could I ask a few questions about your father?[/quote]

No I'm not, not at all. When the declaration of Indepence was written, the Brittish Navy was already sending paid mercenaries to bring military control over the colonies and kill revolutionaries. They told the king enough was enough, we're starting our own country, and it was the king whos ent men to fight them. The Civil War really shouldn't have happened. Lincoln provoked the South into secession, not because of slaves but because of difference between economic systems. For WW2, people were ebing slaughtered in Europe. They had to unify with others to fight back against Germany, Italy and Poland. The war was already there, jsut because it hadn't hit the United States doesn't mean they didn't have an obligation to France. (In fact, the first thing the American Soldiers said when they got off the boats into France was, "Lafayette, we are here." It was a delcaration to the French, the other end of the deal perse, since Lafayette lead French troops to aid the Americans during the revolution.)

Long paragraph. If threatend for my life, or if I had a child or a wife, or anyone that closr to me, or life in general, I would fight for the protection of that life to the point of killing the aggressors. It's different, I'm not trying to justify a god damned thing. I'm not trying to make the world a better place, I'm simply trying to protect myself or living things around me.

[quote=Channler]



EDIT: If it isn't a to touchy subject Minque, could I ask a few questions about your father?[/quote]

no problems...go ahead!

[quote=DoomedOne]
The Civil War really shouldn't have happened. Lincoln provoked the South into secession, not because of slaves but because of difference between economic systems.[/quote]

lol, I actually agree with you there, save I'm glad the Civil War happened when it did. If it happened 100 years ago there would of been alot more people dead, and undoubtably the US wouldn't be the power that it is today

[quote=DoomedOne]
Long paragraph. If threatend for my life, or if I had a child or a wife, or anyone that closr to me, or life in general, I would fight for the protection of that life to the point of killing the aggressors. It's different, I'm not trying to justify a *&^( ^(%@ thing. I'm not trying to make the world a better place, I'm simply trying to protect myself or living things around me.[/quote]

No need to get angry... But instead of waiting and letting someone go and threaten the ones of love and hold close, I'd rather stop them before they had the chance.

BTW I didn't know about that Layafette thing.. Even if France missed half the war..

Lafayette is a hero and anyone who considers themselves a patriotic American should bear that in mind.

And, we missed like 3/4s of WW2. Does that make Patton one quarter the hero?

[quote=DoomedOne]Lafayette is a hero and anyone who considers themselves a patriotic American should bear that in mind.

And, we missed like 3/4s of WW2. Does that make Patton one quarter the hero?[/quote]

It was a joke buddy, lighten up..

If it weren't for the French we would of possibly lost the war.. Them sinking british ships before they could reach america really helped.

BTW we missed little less than half a WW2.. started in 1939 ended in 1945 we entered in 1941..

OK.....now you two please stay nice and calm.....no need to get upset or annoyed ...let´s keep it nice so we can have this thread living....

okay?

[quote=minque]OK.....now you two please stay nice and calm.....no need to get upset or annoyed ...let´s keep it nice so we can have this thread living....

okay? [/quote]

Yes Mam!

why that´s EXCELLENT......

so Channler what did you wanna ask about my dad?

[quote=minque]why that´s EXCELLENT......

so Channler what did you wanna ask about my dad?[/quote]

Well alot of people I talk to get very... upset when I wanna talk about WW2 and there relatives were part of the Axis powers.

Anyways, was your Dad living in the Netherlands(?right place?) during the time and get drafted into the army, or was he part of the german army before the war broke out?

WW2 is like my fortie, I hate that I love it so much, being that many people died in all..

OK

Now my father is german, he was 17 years when the war broke out. Came in the army (marines) in 1942. Was in France the North coast, Batterie Todt, maybe you´ve heard of it. occupation forces,

He was caught by the allies at Dunquerque and so brought o england ant put in prison....

Do you know how long he was in prison for?

yes...from 1944 til 1948 when they let him out, but he wasn´t treated bad in prison...

[quote=minque]yes...from 1944 til 1948 when they let him out, but he wasn´t treated bad in prison...[/quote]

Thats good, I can't remeber the other question I wanted to ask..

If it's not too intrusive, what exactly did he do?

in general during the war he was in the occupation forces who occupied france.....he was in that fort guarding the french coastline


in prisonhe he was editorial at a newspaper......in general

I think I was being nice. I don't recall getting angry at all. Maybe a little irritated. You need to expect me to act irritated when in reponse to political jokes. I once knew a guy who was very republican (not that that's relevant) and always tried to make jokes, saying despite whether you're right or left you have to laugh at that. I of course responded, "It's not that I'm not laughing because I'm a tight-boat. I'm not laughing because it's not funny. If you say something unfunny politically, then all you're doing is being a glib arguer." Other than that I think anything angry anyone saw in what I was saying was in their heads.

Though, I am a protcetor of the French politically. I remember a guy who was trying to get his point across by saying, "If somebody pooped on the statue of liberty everybody would cry." Well, by ignoring the great ties that have held France and America together because they were able to stand together in times of conflict, that is the symbol of the statue of liberty. That's what the statue represents, so, in my opinion, a whole lot of people was pooped on the statue of liberty.