Now that I've released a large quest mod (TWMP Skyrim Alive) with several quest lines, I am getting questions from users who get stuck, and not because of bugs. This got me thinking back to all the various games that I played and how they handle quests and quest lines, how much hand-holding they provided and what I found fun and what not so much. Given that most people on this forum have already played a game or two I thought we could discuss this.

I'll start with a comparison of Morrowind TES3 and Oblivion TES4. In Morrowind you start on a ship, arrive in a strange land, get a package to deliver fully expecting to be thrust into the thick of things... and what does Caius tell you? "You're no good to me at level 1, go off, do stuff, come back when you're stronger." Huh? In Oblivion on the other hand, you do get thrust into the thick of things straight away, and with great urgency - just like in most other games I played.

The first time when I played Morrowind, I got discouraged and confused. What do you mean - go off and do stuff? What am I supposed to do..? But now, so many years, games and playthroughs later, I absolutely love this approach. And it continues like this throughout - Caius never puts any urgency onto his requests, he's a typical fellow who speaks softly and carries a large stick. And with that we arrive at the topic of quest markers, etc.

But it's over to you now. What approach to quests do you like or dislike? Do you like it structured or do you prefer to be told to go off and do stuff?

If you like it structured, then you probably don’t like mods, because they change that structure. You’re asking people who already answered that they like extra choices, and not doing what the game tells them to do.

Am I playing this game, or is it playing me?

I personally love Morrowind's hands-off approach. I think it truly embraces the nature of an open-world game and its... openness.

However, I know people who are the exact opposite. They kind of liked Skyrim, but never got far in it precisely because the game was too open and hands off for them. They were overwhelmed by the number of choices, and had no idea what to do. Instead they preferred games like the Mass Effects series, or the old Kotor games.

It really is just a matter of different people are going to have different tastes.

I think you can want mods even if you like a structured approach. You could have quest mods that add their own new adventures, completely self-contained, without "breaking" the game in any way. And the question is then how would you want those quests designed - structured or free?

I am getting complaints that my fetch quests don't have a marker leading you to the exact location of the item to fetch. Err... but where's the challenge in that? It's not much of a search quest if you know exactly where to look!

Similarly, people get confused because some quests are confusing. But they don't think to go talk to the NPCs living nearby to see if something else might come along that would clarify the situation.

And then they ask for a walkthrough.

Well, I guess I'm seeking justification for making confusing quests... Morrowind is confusing, right?

~~~~~~~~

Half an hour later: asking the right question is the most difficult bit, isn't it?

So, let me have another go. My question is this: how can I help those users that get confused by confusing quests and don't think about poking their noses everywhere, so how can I help them without spoiling the fun for the other users who do poke their noses everywhere and don't want hand holding?

Do I make an option in the INI file? Do I send out letters when I notice that the user gets stuck? Ideas, please?

Ah! What an apt discussion you have brought up!

Funny thing is, during my earliest days of Oblivion (my first Elder Scrolls) I remember just being blown away by the world, all its NPCs, the fact that NPCs actually went different places, all over the world sometimes. Particularly, I remember following Thoronir around during the Market quest. Was amazed he went from his shop into different parts of the I.C. After years of console games in which NPCs mostly stand around, (unless they attack) I was thoroughly amazed that so many people could simply live actual lives, etc..

As Thoronir walked all around the city I have a vague memory of the Quest Arrow changing from red to blue to green. At the time I had no idea what this meant; I was too impatient to read the game manual. Once I understood what was happening, over time Quest Arrows began to bother me. Eventually (as many of you know) I began putting electrical tape over the compass, directly on the TV screen. Because wasn't I supposed to be the one figuring out all this stuff, while roleplaying my character is the one actually doing so?



So yes, I prefer Initiative.

As for your mod, I am saying: do not compromise. As Bethesda themselves well know, you cannot please everybody. And adding Markers in to appease those who are disappointed might cause issues, not to mention a ton of extra work.... and there would still be some folks who are not pleased.

One solution could be to write up a Walkthrough/Cheats guide for those who want it. I can see you've already considered this, as well. This is the lesser evil, in my opinion, and it seems you don't wish to do this (which is fine.. it's your work after all). But one thing you do NOT wanna do, again my opinion, is compromise all the way to Quest Markers. Because doing so could affect your Reputation. I like that you've chosen to go for a Reputation for mod-making which is Challenging. Don't bend to the lazier folks' wishes, is what I say. Over time, those who appreciate challenge will be attracted to your ideals.

Thank you. *sits down*

Both actually.

When it comes to the big picture, I really want an open world that does not channel you too much. I hated the big quests (Redcoats vs Bluecoats and the dragonborn stuff) in Skyrim but the game was open enough that it didn't make much difference. I really enjoyed the first time Buffy got out of Oblivion's prison and the game basically said, "You can go do what Baurus said or ignore it as long as you like and go just explore/adventure."

Now that said, when it comes to the micro picture within an accepted quest, I want hand holding. Specifically, I hate puzzle quests unless they are really easy. If the puzzle quest is easy enough, Buffy can figure it out in game and that's fine. The moment we have to go to the web to look up how to do it (which is most puzzles for Buffy and I), it's a fail in my book. Basically any quest where I have to go to the web to figure out how to do it is a fail as far as I'm concerned.

One reason Buffy's been playing ESO so very long now is that they really nailed the mix I like. Incredible massive open world sand box where you can totally choose what you do and don't want to do. But if you do accept a quest, it provides plenty of info and help so we never have to go look up how to complete a quest and almost never get stumped by a puzzle.

Yes, Acadian also hasn't got a prob with knowing what's ahead, from what he's described over the years. He likes consulting UESP and other wiki sites, and does not begin playing until he's thoroughly studied a game beforehand. Because he wants Buffy's experience to be smooth rather than cantankerous, from what I understand.



I missed this part before. I suppose you could offer an .ini so that both sides are appeased. This way, your mod gets maximum attention. Up to you Lena, of course.

I would distinguish between a “find” quest and a “fetch” quest. Find implies the challenge is in tracking down the location, whereas fetch implies the challenge is reaching the known location, e.g it is known to be guarded. As long as the game tells me which type this is, then I am happy.

Quests also need to be designed for failure, which many forget. A maze puzzle needs a way to give up and go back to the start, a switch puzzle needs a reset lever, and the boss monster needs to have a tether, so you can run away.

In-game ways to ask for help, such as books you pick up and can re-read, also let the player determine how they want to play, without contacting the author. One good example in Skyrim is Katria’s journal, which you can combine with another dead adventurer’s notes to solve a switch sequence puzzle. You can choose to read them, or not, and the puzzle is simplified if you prefer that. Failure there is spawned mobs each time you get it wrong, which resets it, and you try again. A lot of players still use google to solve it.

Skyrim also has radiant quests, where locations are chosen when the quest runs, and these may or may not be places the player already knows. Markers can be the first clue that a place even exists. For Oblivion, it is possible to do something similar, placing an item to fetch at a location randomly selected from a list, the difference being that the mod author has to provide the list. Skyrim’s method lets a mod added dungeon become the location for another mod’s treasure. I have had my quest to gather the Wainwright’s tools for Khajiit Hearthfires place them in caves added by DLC’s and other mods. However, the quest markers point to the right places, even though I didn’t know about them when I created the mod, and so I could not have provided any other clues. Since this is a sequence of fetch quests, markers don’t affect the challenge.

Find quests are best suited to background collections, like Barenziah’s crown. You know what constitutes a complete collection, and the challenge is finding them all. No markers for the units, but a marker for where to take them at the end. Again, a lot of players want a list of locations, rather than let serendipity do it. My opinion is that such a list should exist outside the game, somewhere the player can find it only if they want it.

Asking for directions means giving extra dialogue to a number of NPCs, and you open yourself to complaints if every randomly spawned character from someone else’s mod can’t tell you. I prefer to avoid that.

My build your own homes mods for Skyrim get mostly complaints that building is too much effort, and they want them ready-made. The same players probably consider googling for cheat codes is how you “beat the game”.

Good discussion! Interesting opinions, different views! Let's have a few more.

But in the meantime, I just want to pick up this one point from Ghastley's post:

I think that "fetch" quests can have a search challenge too. I would tell the player in which cave to search, but I would not provide a marker to the exact location of the artefact within that cave. And yes, it will be guarded and you will likely stumble into the wrong corner with a super-zombie and no treasure. Personally, I find it too easy if the quest marker points at the exact location of the artefact. So this is still a "fetch" quest, but not completely guided.

I actually love ghastley's idea the most. Add some in-game solutions, cleverly-worded, perhaps. Books or some such, placed in or nearby the cell where the hidden item (or whatever) is. And this way, you don't have to offer walkthroughs or markers, in theory. You can wash your hands of the whole business: those who can't be bothered to find these in-game 'solutions' really aren't trying hard enough.

Dang, I hadn't considered that.

But still, Lena. *takes a sip of coffee* As I said, in the end it really won't matter what you change or add, someone will still complain. Gamers can be the most entitled, least satisfied lot, no matter! But at least what ghastley's saying is an explanation which is in the game. Those who suss a challenge and those who need some help are both getting appeased.

Yeah, I've done that. Put out books, notes and given various NPCs helpful dialogue lines. But some players either can't be bothered to read, or can't even find a letter in their own inventory because they don't think to check, and they certainly don't talk to the NPCs... hmm... should I just ignore such players? Perhaps they don't really qualify to be the main hero to begin with.

With that said, I could do more, of course...

But here's a good point that Renee brought up: Reputation. May be I should just stick to the way I like my quests, which is challenging and somewhat confusing. You have to pick up the clues and separate actual leads from red herrings. I love quests like that. So it seems I made something along those lines. If I start putting out too much information, it will rip the heart out of them. Hmm... what a dilemma.

Just wanted to say: I appreciate all feedback and I'm still listening and soaking up ideas. I plan a round of putting in hints and tips over the weekend and will try to come up with help that can be ignored if so desired. So keep them coming!

Ghastley says:
Yes, these would be backtracking possibilities. But I disagree that they are required. You can always load an earlier save and go do something else. Most games I played don't allow for retreat.

I feel this is one of those matter of taste points. Switch puzzles are not in the same league as mazes and boss enemies. Puzzles need a reset, enemies I think not necessarily.

From all your responses and the ones I got on Nexus, one thing is abundantly clear: preferences vary greatly and I should not try to please everyone. Not that I was necessarily trying to in the first place. But I realise now that I have to make a clear decision for myself how much help I want to provide within my quests and how confusing, hard or unforgiving I want them to be. Then I should stick to it because otherwise I won't be pleasing anyone at all, and least of all myself. It's what Renee said: Reputation.