You knew this would happen.

You just knew it would happen when you heard that Oblivion's rating was changed by the ESRB on the grounds that "the game contains hidden nudity".

You just knew he would get involved to spread FUD.

It is also clear that Take-Two corporately and its senior officers, including CEO Paul Eibeler, individually, must now be prosecuted criminally for the knowing distribution of "sexual material harmful to minors" which is a felony in most states and nationally. The undersigned intends to work toward that end immediately.

...

Its popular and newly released Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion has now been re-rated "Mature" and recalled by the ESRB because Take-Two and its co-publisher have been caught embedding nude figures and scenes in the game which can be unlocked with a code provided by the developer. This is not a modification or "mod" of the game by gamers. It is an unlocking of content that was put there by Take-Two with the unlocking code provided by the developer!

Go read Jack Thompson's press release over at Games First.

Maybe have a good laugh. Or maybe frown and understand that this guy is a serious threat to the gaming industry and all happy gamers, because there's enough people in influental positions that don't know any better or try to make profit of this and support his agenda.

Now, you probably haven't seen what the fuss is all about. Can't have that.

Oblivion's Harmful Boobs

Oh god...

Did I understand this right? If i didn't,please correct me


Is this guy seriusly going against the gaming industry?THE gaming industry?That has biger profit than Hollywood?Wow.
That's ambitius.
To put it simply and politely:He has no chance.
Deadly results?LOL



I'll laugh

Jack Thompson seems to have taken the movie Equilibrium a little too seriously. More to the point though, I dont see its any of his damn business what people do. If parents want to let their kids play games with adult material in, fine. Although Im pretty damn sure most game influenced killers had a mental illness in the first place.

So Id appreciate it if he could give the "mind altering" crap a rest, because quite frankly its an insult to responsible gamers.

Anyway, now to the point of this thread about the "hidden boobies". I think were missing the bigger picture here. Anyone who can whack off to such fake looking breasts while playing an rpg cleary deserves more credit. I did laugh my head off when I saw the "harmful boobs" however.

Of course what was also funny was that these people seem to think Take-Two is on a mission to implement smut into games that kids can purchase. I mean look at the "code provided by the developer" part. What do they think is happening? That people are contacting Take-Two and meeting a representative down a dark alleyway?

Seriously these people have a more hyperactive imagination than the kids playing these games. Still I dont think they are a threat to gaming, or at least not to mine. Im over 18 you goddamn whinos so you cant do a thing to me!

That's what you think. If Thompson and his chronies get what they want, then who knows what happens. It may be that the government finally decides that an industry-operated organization is inadequate for the job and that they have to do it themselves. Then what happens? Age restrictions becoming mandatory? And do you think this won't affect games companies?

Of course, I'm being very pessimistic here, but it's always better to combat such things before they grow out of control. Just my €0.02.


Oh, and yeah. Anyone who's seen those "boobs" and thinks they're harmful to anyone has lost it.

Alright, I've heard of this guy maybe once or twice. This time, I actually read (a small) part of the wikipedia. Now in my not so professional opinion, this guy is whacko.

First of all, what he's doing is pointless, usually tried in a very stupid way or just a plain attempt at getting attention, the bad sort.
I mean come on, you try to sue someone for putting a hand on your shoulder and say that they don't like you, after you tried to get their reputation and all thrown into the mud? That's just pathetic.

And now we turn to games. Alright, I play violent games. Violent by his standards. You know, nothing's as violent as hitting Mudcrabs. Or what about the time I blew the warp nacelles of that ship in Star Fleet Academy so I could tow it home and arrest the bad guys. I could've blown them up instead. They were the ones who were trying to destroy a planet. But no, phasers set on disable are evil.

Still, I am one hell of a big coward who is scared of accidentally hurting someone (like myself, I am clumsy ) with a blunt kitchen knife! And I never punched, shot, stabbed etc. anyone in my life. So go figure. Either I'm a total pacifist and a big exeption to things, or he's making it look a lot worse than it really is.

I do see your point, but I look at it as in if they tune down adult rated games, they have to do movies, books, tv, everything. But I really think this thing is getting out of hand. I mean its a badly done part of the female body. Many girl gamers have them, and Im pretty sure most people will see them eventually.

Its pretty childish coming from a bunch of adults. Still I stick by what I said. You have got to have had quite a bit of caffeine to think that Take-Two is on a secret mission to smuggle sexual images to the kids of today.

Rainer is sick and tired of Jack's ramblings. He thinks he is on a crusade and all he is succeding in doing so far is getting the wrong attention.

But that Take2 was providing nude mod codes?! Did he even get any high School education?! Who in the world would think such an idiotic idea? They are not the developers, they were the publishers. Why should they take the heat?

Also, they claim it was worse than last year's "Hot coffee" incident. How is horrible repesntation of female anatiomy worse than outright adultery?


Jack will never learn, and it is people like him that the gaming industry suffers.

Rainer has played many violent games, and is he a psychotic murderer? No! Rainer is just a 15 year old boy who roleplays a khajiit on the forums and is a pacifist.

Jack should get his facts straight, and not from inside his head. Misinformation is worse than no information at all, and this is the absolute worst case of misinformation that Rainer has ever seen.

So Jack, smarten up, or may your gods be merciful. Because many others won't.

edit:in Rainer's Ranting he forgot about spelling

That idiot Jack Thompson just doesn't quit, does he?

Here are 2 of his gems:

1. Jackie told that he bought stocks from Take-Two and he saw on meetings what they actually do.

-Only one problem: He must have much stocks to go on meetings and because he doesn't have so much money, everyone knows that he is daydreaming

2. He'll pay 10 000$ to anyone who makes this game:
A guy calles Mikuyaka had a son who was killed because his friends were playing too much violent games. Now Miuyaka takes weapon in his hands and starts killing game sellers, game developers and other until the big finale: E3!!! And the game must be full of blood!

-Would you now take this guy siriously?


Just forget about him. He only won the fight with GTA: SA because it had more then boobs in it but it is GTA's fold. Jackie is just an harmles idiot.

Well hopefully this will turn into a good thing for Bethesda due to all the 'free' publicity of Oblivion.

Btw, the nude female upper part actually had nipples before the patch, but still didn't look very well...

I've been actively following what Mr. Thompson has been doing ever since last summer, during that whole "Hot Coffee" thing.

I have consistently been dissapointed in his overall behavior, and, although I hate to say it, his own "virtues." He is constantly inflamatory. He never does proper research. He's a sensationalist.

To sum it up, he's not a lawyer, but an ameteur journalist.

His attacks on the ESRB are entirely without merit, though perhaps, I cannot say 100% unwarranted; I was wondering how Oblivion got to be rated "T" in the first place, nude content or no.

He has clearly not done enough research, or even simply put enough rational thought to it.

I personally find my tolerance for him to have been entirely worn through. His actions are potentially dangerous, and through increasingly indirect means, could affect the entire economy, as the games industry is one of the hearts of the computer technology industry, and the computer technology industry is a unique, irreplaceble engine of the modern economy; no other industry has the potential to yield so much growth, and with much more stability than other major industries.

I personally think that it's time he get rebuked, like he's never been before. I know the sources to prove all of his points wrong. It's just a matter of time before he gets presented with them, with no way to slip through.

I do wonder, though; his actions against the entertainment industry in general have not been his only claims to being (in)famous. I recall that there were some incidents in his bid to become attorney general for the state of Florida, where he had another encounter with a famous Clinton administration official: Janet Reno, who served as the U.S. Attorney General during his administration. I recall that Mr. Thompson lost, but had been involved in a major smear campagin against Ms. Reno. Much to the point where it actually was HE who was stepping out of the lines of protected speech, as his comments were effectively slander.

Having actually broken down by hearing all of the repeated comments on it, I've actually seen them, and I will say, they were harmful to me. But in a different manner than Jack Thompson, or anyone raging about them, would think; I mean, look at how HIDEOUS they are! My eyes felt like they were burning; surely, Oblivion couldn't look THAT bad in some areas!

Good thing that they normall have those areas covered up.


One the first issue, he may actually have gone to a "minor shareholder's meeting." Of course, I don't even know if T2I actually HAS such meetings, and if they did, and he did go to one, his comments on "what they really do" are merely suggestions, where he falsely implies what happens during them, when instead, they would proceed, (barring unlawful interruptions, of course) like any other meeting of minor shareholders in a company; very broad, general decisions, with very little power to enforce them, all in an attempt to raise share values.

As for the second issue, as I recall, within weeks of him making that announcement, numerous entries were submitted, that all qualified; some were even, in an intentional ironic twist, total-conversion mods for Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. As for the $10,000 reward part, I believe it was a promise to DONATE $10,000US to the favorite charity of the head of T2I. He never did honor his offer, though the creators of the Penny Arcade comic strip did, giving a donation in Jack Thompson's name, to the ESA Foundation, in Jack Thompson's name. (Link 1, Link 2)

Lastly, though, I personally think that while he himself may be harmless, unfortunately, those around him, and those perhaps desperate enough to listen to him, aren't quite so much.

Oh noes...Oblivion and ANY game can have nudity modded into it. ANY game can. ANY. Yet oblivion has a no-clothes model. That they PUT the clothes on. And without that there would just be clothes walking around. It adds realism so the bras and boxers and junk dont look as if welded into the person, but more like clothes. What should they have done on the blank model? Put giant censored bars?
Cmon, this is ridiculous.

Anyway, I see worse on TV. Do they even know how bad adult swim has gotten?


Will having an oblivion box with T on it make its value higher?
Heh, I didnt open my oblivion box and just used my bros. Got a collectors in still perfect condition.

It would have been the more aesthetic thing to do, given the current look

Plus if for some weird reason you (as in someone) really needed a game for your sexual phantasies, at least you could have imagined proper details under the bars

It's pretty sad that someone could have the nerve to call that offensive or "sexual material harmful to minors" it's just a character mesh...makes me sick what some people will do for drama.

Jack Thompson=Drama Queen

Since when is nudity automatically sexual, anyway?

And... more importantly...why isn't he sueing the school system? They actually SHOW you sex when you're 12. It's called Sex Ed. Nudity, full frontal, even what might be considered really bad softcore porn provided by two people who look like your mum and dad. Doesn't that consitute 'sexual material harmful to minors'.

What he really should do is open up a lawsuit on any porn that features women with pickaxes, pneumatic drills or shovels working underground. He'd probably consider that 'sexual material harmful to miners'.

Love that kind of humor...

Rainer wonders if such behavoir on Jack Thompson's part is open to legal debate. (ie:Lawsuit)

Can't we just, y'know, put out a Dark Brotherhood contract on him or something?

I have 2 words for Bethseda: Counter sue! They could get court cost and damages from him for spreading falsities. Next he will say he sue Christianity for making such a runchy and violent book and spread rumours about how he bought shares of god, so was allowed in heaven and saw Jesus and Satan doing it!

I just think they sould sue take two it their fault they are dumb why do they have to ruin games whith nudeness come on what is the piont of it it makes me sick not really but they sould fix it and move on and Jack Thompson should stay out of it

Hello world

I am awaiting a new system to arrive so I can begin playing Oblivion. In the meantime I thought I would check what's going on.

Indeed, I do agree with a lot of the concern on the ratings.

I would like to apologize in advance if some of my personal views below offend some people's personal beliefs. However none is meant in an insulting manner.

First: Always IMHO, the hypocritical morals of some purported Christians in the United States are not a particularly startling phenomenon. After all, look at our society. Pietism and Puritanism are the unfortunate children of the Reformation and counter-Reformation, themselves having been begotten out of the ugly wedlock of European barbarism and the declining legacy of the Papacy that many would argue had already lost the essence of Christianity after the Great Schism of 1054. The East has for the most part kept a Christianity that is quite distinct to what we have been used to in this part of the world, although the past 200 years have seen a slow change in this respect, which is very fortunate for us.

Of course, there are also a small number of "Christian Right" activists who happen to be Eastern Orthodox, at least by name, but they certainly do not represent the Consciousness of the Orthodox Church, which clearly states that politics cannot mingle in its realm in an essential dogmatic way. Christ was persecuted exactly because He did not come to bring an external peace, as some political leaders would have it, but "His peace"; an inner peace. Clearly this man who writes about "gaming" so frivolously (and others like him) seems to have totally missed the point by trying to present Christianity as some form of Idealist Manifesto whose purpose is to make long statements and banish this or that "evil". That however is not Christianity but a sociopolitical theory that can easily be undertaken by any "moral person" who wants to be an activist.

Whatever people's beliefs on the topic, what matters for us gamers (Christian or other) is to realise that Christian ethos and morality cannot be measured against or associated with "morality in games" in an external and therefore shallow way. Perhaps the man might be well-meaning in what he is doing but I cannot agree in the way this is done.

Second: Having said this, we must also look at the other side of the coin. Grand Theft Auto for example, no matter how much we may not wish to admit this, did portray some situations in life that might concern not only a parent but ourselves and our younger brothers. Irrespective as to what happens in other areas (online pornography, school etc.), we have a weak argument if we claim that "there are more important areas to check for morality", much in the same way that when a cop gives us a speeding ticket we do not say "but the other guy behind me passed a red light". The idea is that teenagers may not have as yet developed a sufficient idea of what reality entails and, as they may still be absorbing what they see unquestioningly, they might also be influenced by it in a negative sense. From a Christian perspective, however, one may also wonder if such a pastime is beneficial for one's soul (certainly a question ripe for the younger ones and also for the older bunch -- we are not excluded from this). This however cannot by its nature be discussed or developed outside the pre-eternal ethos of the Church through the ages, which certainly seems to be absent in the underlying hypocricy of various pep-rallying activists (well-meaning or not they may be, that is not my concern).

Since a true Christian mindset can only be developed by individual people through imitation (much like jogging needs to be lived to become a way of life for our health) of the Christian life witnessed, we must realise that such discussions will bear little to no fruit if done outside the right context, as we also need a personal commitment from people who are Christian or become Christian (in some specific and definable way that is clearly beyond the purpose of this post). Of course the problem is much more complex, but essentially we can see that the Church (at least my perception of Christian Church which is found in the Orthodox Church) is not trying to stop people from saying "don't do this or that" but is first and foremost being the place, the Ecclesia, where people are meant to work out their salvation, by bringing them closer to Christ (theosis). Thus such suggestions cannot be developed outside the context of The Church through the ages, and become a sociopolitical fanfare of some activist with some very vague idea about Christianity. Of course, due to the fragmentation of Western Christendom it is common to try and minimalize issues, but that is precisely why we have "astronomers" and "astrologers" both claiming they are "scientists who study the stars". So the upshot is: while there is some point in discussing these issues of morality, these cannot make sense out of context.

Third: We must also admit that these issues need to be addressed. Bethesda also produced Cthulu which seems quite a disturbing game. I do not think that this would leave to some person (young or old) nice images inside them. Of course, in that game there is no questioning the mature rating. Perhaps that, together with the Elder Scrolls' success, led some people to pay closer attention to the game. At any rate, the Elder Scrolls series have never promoted some of the more questionable mods. Let us also recall that they almost got into trouble for the popular Children's mod, that worried some that weirdos could use it in the wrong way to promote paedophilia. Clearly, there are a lot of issues that need to be addressed when a free-form modding community exists. Sometimes they are of an evolving technology with unanticipated issues.This can be addressed through the parents and their children but also through careful monitoring by the company who makes these games (and Bethesda did do that).

Fourth: Following from the above, is there something we can say about games? Obviously, the first thing is that parents and children must be responsible about what they buy, read and also cooperate. That means the teenagers talk to mom and dad and the other way around. Communication. When something is clearly contumelious to the spiritual welfare of a child (even among the media norms) and yet the media promote it because "it sells", is it and some half-revealed nipple in a game that causes the problem? If the child develops and uses questionable mods, the parent is responsible for they should have made it their business to learn what's going on. IMHO what is far more important in a game is that it should not take so much time that we lose on other areas of our lives (for Christian people, losing too much time away from God would mean a "true oblivion"). But whatever people believe or support, and I respect it of course, it is certain that the ball falls back to the parents, and how they help their children grow up. Playing a few hours of clean-fun oblivion with your kid is no problem.

Fifth: A more careful examination of such issues may reveal that such people like this activist are often presented as some form of "scapegoat", out to ridicule Christians or Christianity. The "Christian Right" by no means represents Christianity in any way, especially if one actually realises that even the "Christian America" is closer to a myth, a romantic portrayal, that forgets to add e.g. Jefferson's rationalism that erased all miracle-working stories from the Bible because they had no place in the new rationalism. Furthermore, we need to realise that a distorted ethos can arise in a society that has been influenced by a distorted view of Christianity since the beginning.

Irrespective of how well Christianity is represented in the US or not, and irrespective as to how much or how little agree with these views presented here, the upshot is that Oblivion probably does not deserve the mature rating although I would think that a parent should be informed about the content of the games his child is about to receive.

For us grown-ups of course, our decisions are (at least theoretically) sound and mature.