So a tiny thing brought up in the main forums are the ideas of moral values.

In The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever by Stephen R. Donaldson the main character chooses not to accept this dream world as reality and therefore finds it okay to rape a young girl.

In the main forum this topic was slashed and flamed in all three threads it made an appearance because people did not understand the idea. It's simple, if you accept a world as fake, whether you realize you're dreaming, or you're in a video game, do the moral laws you would usually uphold yourself to still stand? Would you suddenly find it okay to exercise the most evil, atrocious side of your personality and find it pleasurable, to your character, at least, to murder and mutilate?

This question has a bigger purpose, but first I'd like some people's opinions on where they stand when it comes to morality and video games. If they created a video game where the suffering of your victims looked parallel to if you were performing the act in real life, would you still be able to go through with it?

I don't know, Of coure in real life, right now, it is easy to say "No, I won't do that or I could never kill a man in that situation (etc)" but when you are acctually there it would be hard to, uhh (sorry looking for the word ), uphold your morals that you would keep in real life.

Like is somebody acctually came up and could convince me that this world is a fake, then I would probebly, no without a shadow of a doubt, would have the urge to that sort of thing. But like I said easy to say no I would or wouldn't do that but only in that exact possition you would know what you would do.

So those are my two cents, and is that book actually a real book? if so were could I find it?

The reason I play videogames is to do things that I can't do in real life. That is IMO the point of playing videogames. However if the situation in the videogame was so lifelike that it was real, then I don't know if I would be able to bring myself to kill a person, or anything else. Intresting topic you brought up. If only I had the attention span at the moment to make a better post for it. Later, perhaps.

No one else has an opinion?

I find this topic very interesting. I have ponderded this exact point several times myself. A game in which only the depraved would be able to act as they do would be a very atrocious abomination to society though Personally the only reason we can act the way we do through talk and simulated play is because it is so unreal we just can't accept it as horribly disgustingly atrocious reality.

But enough of saying what you said back at you. Deep down in my core I'm actually a very caring person, I don't belive now matter how much I disliked someone I couldn't kill them, even if it is a dream. I have the most insane and sickened dreams I have heard from anyone, yet in none of them have I ever done something bad. Even though it is someone else doing something it's still all generated by my mind isn't it? And any victims or whatnot would still be me would it not? I'm trying to get to a point but my mind keeps shutting off. I'll make a better post later.

I don't even want to get on the philosophy that life is but a dream, I spent too long agonizing over wether it was true or not when I was younger.

there's a balance in this somewhere.

Ex. I don't feel bad at all killing someone in a game, but I feel bad if I hurt omeone's feelings in real life.

But, if it was extremely realistic, and I couldn't tell the difference between game and reality, I wouldn't do anything bad.

Exactly my thoughts.

Unless my life (Or the life of someone I care about) is at stake I would not kill someone,
even in Morrowind I approach someone to see if they are hostile before attacking. It is a rare accorence where I kill random NPCs in any game, only if I am in a extremly bad mood, and only because it is fake.

So I guess you could say that even if I knew this world was fake I would still be a nice guy and not go on mass killing sprees. I hold onto my morals tightly and would never lose them in any realistic enviroment.

It all really depends on which game and what char I'm playing really. Like it is almost impossible to not kill someone in a GTA 3-SA game (belive me I have tried) yet In Morrowind it all depends on who I am.

I don't think that morality applies when playing videogames for two reasons:

Firstly, the world depicted in the game and all of the characters in it are fictional. For this reason, any immoral act in-game cannot possibly have a negative impact on anything but teh game world, which is there simply to provide you with entertainment. There may be some issues of morality in multiplayer gaming, but this usually concerns the exploiting of other people in which the game is simply the vehicle for exploitation.

Secondly, in a roleplaying game, the idea is to adopt the persona of someone else and act accordingly. If I am playing as someone immoral, I will commit immoral acts. If not, I won't.

I believe it is fundamental to video games to allow people to experience things which they cannot in ordinary life (if they didn't, there would be no point in playing them) and it is no surpirse that two of the most popular ideas in video games are those of fighting and fantasy, as these are things that are interesting to many, but thinsg they would not want in their normal life. Similarly, commiting immoral acts is also something that is a fundamental part of many games because it is something people would not do normally.

A game is a game is a game. No matter how realistic a game looked, I would have no problem killing, robbing etc. in it. It doesn't hurt anyone, and besides, the better games look the more popular they seem to become, so a lot of people would arguably agree with me, except Hilary Clinton.

ah morality issues, such fun complicated and shady area of discussion.

video games, violence, and moality. a very controversial topic indeed. I disagree and will not play games like GTA and other titles whose entire intent if killing, stealing, and other such tasks as it does in its own level lower the level of morility in society. The issue that most often arises, which i believe to be somewhat true is that violent people are drawn to violent video games. But studies have shown that violent video games have SHORT-term influence in people's lives. the good enws is that long term links have not been found, so you won't turn into a cold blooded serial killer for simply playing a video game ofr a few hours.

Personally i think a person's personality influences the morality of the person than does the experience with a video game.

In the book that I mentioned, a man chose to accept the world he was in as a dream world, and therefore felt that the act of rape was not immoral because he was not in the real world.

Video games are just like that, we accept the world is fake, and therefore have no problem performing otherwise immoral acts,

I have three problems with this:

1) The Roleplaying phenomenon. Text book Psychology's name for a startling realization, which is the more you act a certain way, the more it is ingrained in your personality. Roleplaying is a helpful exercise in programs like sexual harassment classes or 12-step programs because they teach you to ingrain certain behaviors into your personality so that in the real world you will act that way. Video games differ, however, because you are not pretending to be somebody or exercizing the personality of somebody else, you're simply looking at the screen, attempting to figure out what the character would do. Violent video games do not make you more violent, that's been proven. However, the Roleplaying phenomenon cannot be completely ignored.

2) Simulated crimes are not victimless crimes. Despite the fact that all suffering in the game world is simulated for you, and therefore you are not actually hurting anyone, in the case of rape and murder, the actor does hurt himself as well as the victim.

3)What about games that have a thinner line between reality and fantasy? Politicians exercize immoral behavior everyday. President Bush misrepresented evidence on Global Warming in favor of his lobbyists that worked for polluting companies. An example of this is you hear the fact, "Volcanoes produce more pollution than humans have for their entire existance." This is false information, generated by uncredible scientists whose information is put above credible scientists because it favors the agenda of these pollution producing businesses. To cover the democrats, during Clinton's administration there was a Columbine school shooting, and while the media was tuned into it Clinton began bombing countries under the radar. These two events are immoral, no one could see themselves misrepresenting information for money or using a tragedy to start wars unnoticed in real life. But that's the thing. There is a human phenomenon where in the instance of a fake world, like a game or a dream, morals don't seem the count to most people, as many of you have stated. These politicians see their actions existing within their own game world because they are so distanced from their effect.

In the end of The Chronicals of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever, the series, he finds out the dream world was as real as his own.

ouch or Ah is what I would normally say in that possition

I wish that was all I could say, almost all I can say, but the mods don't like that but that would stink.

This is somewhat the same question to ask if that for personal gain you would bomb 10,000 people which in itself seem a horrific act, but to see the life each person has and to see their day and the amount they influence the world around them and to dash that all to the ground. In such a position I would surely be a bit less strict in my conduct but if the world was sooo realistic in the first place as to fool me into believing it is real then surely I could not commit such unspeakable act for I would also be stuck in such the world I created.

Any other opinions?

If my actions had no real consiquence, I can imagine that I would be able to kill off three times the world's population and rape every woman I see with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. As far as realism, a certain level of blood or gore would freak me out, definatly. Morally though, as long as I'm not hurting real people, I'd take great pleasure in making my video game alter-ego the ultimate destroyer of lives.

I roleplay in every game I play that it is really possible to roleplay in. I completely create my own character, much the way an author of a book does. This character seems to take on it's own life, and often, I will do something, purely for roleplaying, that I wouldn't have chosen to do. I think this is relevant to your question because it depends, who am I being in the videogame? Most of my characters end up being gallant fighters or kind hearted in some way or another. Thus, they would never do anything like that. However, some of my characters are more evil, and would do evil deeds, even when I, myself, would rather not, unless there is a reason not to, as long as there were no impercussions for anyone, then I would have my character do evil deeds.
I wouldn't kill anyone in real life though. I can't think of anybody that I would kill, even if I was given a gun, them chained to a wall, and amnesty for the murder. I simply don't find enjoyment in causing people pain. Now, certain videogames, for example, Halo 2, make you kill people. Those people are unrealistic, and there is no way they could be even closeto real, so I don't care about them.
I used to think like this: Violent videogames are not the cause of violence, they are an outlet for violence. Something that occurred recently in my life has slightly changed my mind.
My little brother is about 11 and a half years old. He plays the most violent games he can find, and he enjoys for example, Mortal Kombat 5 and 6 with the blood turned to maximum. He likes Legacy of Kain:Blood Omen 2. He likes anything disturbingly violent and bloody, inclding any horror movie he has ever seen. I finally talked him into discussing why he doesn't like George Bush, (neither do I, but I have a reason) since his usual response is, "I'm not gonna tell you, jerk." Well, he answered, "He started the war with Afganistan and Iraq over the terrorism. Why didn''t he just bomb them all?" I was horrified. I don't know if he likes bloody things because of his bloodthirstyness, of if the bloody things cause his bloodthirstyness. Either way, it has at least subtly affected my views on videogames.
I really can't answer this question properly, since I don't know what my answer is. While we should try to uphold out morals whenever possible, what if we are roleplaying a character with different morals, or playing a FPS like Halo? There is no clean cut answer.

Btw, I brought up a similar topic in Oblvion General a few months ago. Mine was about the moral implications of "killing" the new RAI. A random picture prize to whoever can tell what the reaction is.

I read it, and the other thread I read included this same book I mentioned and link to that thread.

You. Were. Flamed.

No, it really is frightening when you hear people talk about the real world and real lives with such a lack of respect or empathy. I'm not sure if it's violent video games as much as people just have this me-generation thing going on. I was listening to some older friends talk (around 30 or 40) about how they ought to just turn Iraq and Afghanistan into a parking lot, and I was too shcoked to speak, then the other guy says, "Yeah that's something the younger generation doesn't understand."

One thing that's interesting is the evolution of society though, because like in the 60s there was apparently this huge number of people that locked their doors at night and hid under a pillow waiting for the era to come to an end, and here today we have those people running our government. So I'm thinking, "Wait a second, these are all baby-boomers making these greedy decisions."

As far as videogames, I think it depends on a lot of things, like, the fact that your brother plays a lot of violent video games is not problem, but there probably is link between the huge doses of violence he gets and his violent attitude towards society. Most people don't make that link. The roleplaying phenomenon does not really apply for most role-playing gamers, and most gamers also learned the seperate realities, so they don't take what they get from a gory game and apply it to real life. Some people just don't though.

The question of the Unbeliever though, more applies to real life with a Video-game tie in. I doubt there exists very many human beings at all that could stand to live with a bunch of people from anywhere in the world for one week, and then blow them up, rip them apart, murder their daughters, sisters and wives, etcetera. However, no one spends a week with these people to learn they're human, to learn exactly what it is they're destroying, let alone politicians who get their training either in law school or business school, both of which teach professional ethics over morality. These Politicians that start wars are the unbelievers. They have chosen not to accept the world, the families and cultures they destroy as real.

I just wanted to add some perspective to the whole argument that video games cause kids to become violent. It just isnt true. This is a argument that the media and politicians like to throw around because it appeals to a much older generation to explain the age old "I just don't know what is wrong with kids these days" statement. In truth if you go to the dept. of justice web site and pour over the actual statistics, violent crime actually dropped significantly at the start of the 90's for crimes per 1000 people. In fact this is even more significant because the number of reported crimes is a much higher percentage than it ever was in human history. Further breaking down the criminal backgrounds of those that do commit violent acts shows that most of these people come from extremely poor conditions and those that experience violent "real life" childhoods like abuse, not those that typically grew up with xboxs and computers. The media uses extremely isolated cases such as Columbine to try to describe the picture of crime as a whole. The point really is that I have been playing computer/video games now for almost 26 years (yes I am showing my age..I actually played pong) and have no desire to commit violent acts or have any history of anger issues. It takes far more than playing games to make someone act violently. Something is wrong with them deeper than that. I get really upset when I hear or see news stories especially concerning politicians who point a finger at video games or movies. If you want to take statistics out of context you may as well blame it on ice cream. There is a long standing history of factual statistics that shows that the graph of ice cream sales per month correlates with the number of violent crimes per month. So it must be the ice cream that causes it right? These are both dependent variables on something else that is not even mentioned. In this case air temperature. Higher temperature does correlate with violent crime and ice cream sales. So the argument that video games make violent people is completely false, but more correctly that some people that are violent in nature may also like to play video games.

If a game was that real, I'd probablly be as I usually am in games; that is I wouldn't kill NPCs unless they attacked me, simply pissed me off through actions or their character (like Orvas Dren, stuck up twat... <_< ) or such.

Though, I do occaisonally play a 'evil' character to vent some bloodlust and rage on NPCs. Its probablly could be fun even with them lifelike. Maybe more so when the NPC in question was a total boat. Its often why I play a Werewolf in morrowind - free killing sprees. Or why I crank up the gore when playing NWN, as I particularly like seeing enemies explode when my Shapeshifter/Druid brings his axe down (in minotuar form) on some poor honoured user and he (though unrealistically) explodes.

In real life, of course, that probably wouldn't be as cool, more like sickening. I draw a line between reality and games. I don't like seeing main characters in movies/games/books die like that (hence why I don't like horror movies), a person would be worse.

So, yeah, While I'm generally a good guy in a Video, no matter how realistic it is, I will not hesistate to kill in a video game. Its a game, that character is just a bunch of code and graphics.

Neela no one is trying to make the claim that Violent Video Games cause people to be more violent, at least that I've seen. Simply said though, there are cases to watch out for. Just because Marijuana is not nearly as dangerous as it's protrayed does not make it harmless. Violent Video Games will not cause prolonged aggressive behavior, as studies have proven, however people who spend their time watching a screen ripping people apart may not necessarily have the skills needed to determine the difference. In fact, any time before the age of five children can't differentiate what they see on TV as different from the real world. Likewise children under five exposed to violence a lot may have questionable attitudes concerning ethics.

Anyway, again I state the topic of video games was only a lead in to a deeper argument which was ignored.

Neela- I may be a kid, but I've played pong too. O.o

DoomedOne- Yes, you are right. At least about everything except that nobody is trying to claim that video games cause violence. Certainly none of us have, but out in the real world, there is at least Jack Thompson. So, nobody sane is trying to say that video games cause violence.
Yes, there is a correlation between my brother's stance on life and his habits. I've noticed it, and just from what I said, you noticed it too. Pretty obvious. Yet he doesn't know why I shake my head when he says things like that. I've explained it to him, and he thinks that he is in the majority group of the population in most areas. Almost frightening, really. Maybe I should sleep with my eyes open from now on, in case I piss him off...
Maybe what you said about T.V. is the key to this. I'm not saying he should be like me, but what he is is almost frightening. I grew up watching Barney and Sesame Street, since that's pretty much all the kid's shows that were on when I was little. He grew up watching Power Rangers, action movies, violent cartoons and grade-b horror flicks.
And you were absolutely right about my topic. I. Was. Flamed. Even the long time forum goers disagreed with me, which was fine and what I expected. However, the ammount of people who simply disreguarded my idea of out hand with statements like, "no. u suck. go play tetris," was a little frightening. Well, you got it. Want some kind of prize?

Aki- Yeah, that's pretty much my attitude as well.

And back to the riginal question, and trying to steer the discussion back to what DoomedOne was asking originally-

That is a good question. Philosophers could debate this point forever with no conclusion. Logic supports both sides, as well as more emotional reasons.
Yes, morals in videogames:
Logic: Of course. We can't prove the world itself isn't real. How is a dreamworld different? How do we know we don't have it backwards, and the "real" world is the dream, and the "dream" world is real?
No, moral standards in videogames should differ from morals in real life:
Logic: Is every person who plays Halo/Counterstrike/etcetera a murderer? A dream is a dream, fantasy is fantasy.

My answer is:
Yes, we should hold ourselves to the same morals as we do in real life. THis is a list of the morals I can think of that I hold in real life. It isn't a list of morals that everyone should have, as different faiths and such believe different things.
Morals:
-Don't kill except in self defense or if killing is necesary for survival, or if it will prevent an immediate cruel fate. (example of last one: In a series of books by Robert Newcomb, The Chronicles of Blood and Stone, the main character, Prince Tristan,is forced to behead his father, King Nicolaus. Enemy troops have surrounded and defeated them all, and have given him an ultimatum. Kill his father quickly and painlessly, or they will torture him to death.)
-Don't do something to a person unless they want it done. (rape, leaving a person alive but connected to tubes when they have told you that they would rather die than live like that)
-Be respectful to everyone, until such a time as they do something to cause you to lose respect for them. Do not make people earn your respect, rather, give it to them freely, and then take it back if they do something you cannot or will not condone.
-Be respectful towards other people's beliefs, do not tell them, "No, you are wrong. The truth is_____."
-Help others when they need help.
-Do not spurn or shun others for having a different set of morals than you, unless this is simply a person with no morals, or who enjoys doing things that are wrong by almost any set of morals. (murder, rape, ect...)
-Do not disrespect others for not being as good as you are at something, rather, help them. Do not get angry at someone for being better than you at something, rather, learn from them.
-Do not lie, except for little white lies. (No, you're not balding. No you're not fat.)
That's all I can think of for now, maybe I'll think of others later.

No, I don't think I could.

I do want to apologize DoomedOne.. I did get a bit off topic on my rant. Please forgive as I had just walked away from a similar argument with a coworker just prior to reading this thread and I think it just sort of spilled over into here.

No it's okay, it has been touched, and you did bring up a good point and phrase an argument better than I could.

Kindred- Yeah, everyone has their own morals. You seem to me like an INFP. It tends to be the INFPs and INTJs that try to have clear principles. It's hard, like trying to describe what life is in scientific terms, to be able to phrase exactly what your ethics are. Mine are similar, I have mannerisms that get in the way but like many people I have spent a lot of my life trying to figure it out, and ethics is one bug chunk of "it."

I respect acting however, but whenever I play a character who's different from myself (take Wred from WoH) who's also technically a villain, I make him extremely human and relatable. Wred has been haunted with guilt for like five years because his betrayed his legionnaires. He despises himself and everyone who rules him. He just wants to break free, but he also feels he chose his path, and can't turn away. As a writer, I love picking apart people's systems of ethics and seeing where they differ from my own. I'm one of those guys that just wants to smack Wred in the face and tell him today is the first day of the rest of his life, bu alas, I'm not there.

Trigun was great at that, as each character was sort of an ideologue, and I see the main characterization between Vash, Wolfwood, Legato and Knives. You could use as much logic against Vash's means to accomplish his goals, and Vash could probably never argue against it, nor even try. It's like me trying to explain to Channler that Peace is possible, I couldn't find the words. However, he would wear his smile and do what he needed to do anyway, despite criticism he couldn't fight back against.

I could say I agree with your ethics or what problems I see with them except that ethics is a life journey, you can't figure out what your ethics are by picking and choosing them out of the bible or by being conditioned by authority, you have to seek them out.

Same thing will go for my oblivion character with differing ethics. I really want to do the thieves guild and assassins guild because they seem really interesting. I plan to do them at first and start with a character who's a pretty horrible person, then once i finish them I'm going to go through a 180 and change my ways.

INFP? INTJ? I take it these are personality types? And yes, actually, I was digging through some old posts and I noted that you seem to think fairly similar to me, only you articulate your thoughts differently. Been a while since I've done a real personality test, but I vaguely remember seeing something like that.
I have seen Trigun, and I have to agree with you there. It is one of the better animes out there. I think the best of them tend to do a lot of morals and moralistic stuff.
When I write or roleplay, the characters are always realistic. They just have realistic morals, will betray them realistically, try to hold to them in a predictable way. As far as writing goes, I am good at three things:
1. Character developement, personality and stuff like that.
2. (Kind of ties in with 1) Inner drama scenes.
3. Action scenes.
I'm not so great at dialouge, but I'm working on it.

A few of the ethics I listed came not so much from my own behavior as from others. I know a lot of people who act certain ways and I think, "I'd never do something like that." For example, today, a girl in my school was telling me that she was Wiccan. She was explaining a little about it to me and another kid. Well, she was explaining about the Tarot cards, and how they work (reading the future) and the kid says, "Cool! Can I see them?" She tries to explain why nobody else can touch them. I help out here, because she's kind of at a loss for words. I say something along the lines of, "Tarot cards work by getting used to your soul, your spiritual energy, and if someone else uses them, it kind of messes them up and messes up your progress with them." I'm not Wiccan but I know a little about it. The girl agrees with what I said, and offers to read the kids future for him. As soon as nobodies looking, he grabs her Tarot cards and starts looking at them. Btw, she predicted he'll die within a week. Interestingly enough, I know a little bit about palm reading (I know which line is which and that's about it) and his lifeline ends in the middle of his hand. I guess I'll have to wait and see.

You are right that ethics is a life journey. I merely attempted to define the ones I was fairly sure of and I did say I probably missed some.

And yeah, roleplaying the bad guy can be fun sometimes, as long as you know WHY you are doing what you are doing. Ex: (from penny arcade)
Guy #1: What are you doing?
Guy #2: Killing this guy with an ice spell.
Guy #1: Why?
Guy #2: Because he's immune to fire.

People like that bug me.

I will also probably roleplay a "darker" character who does the "eviler" quests some time. However, he'll have a reason to be evil.
FYI, most of the time I try not to play characters with really "dark" pasts, especially in roleplays. While it is fun sometimes, everyone does it, and that makes it boring.

You dug up my old posts? Uh oh. (Knows what it's like to run for an office.)

By the way, I definitely think you're an INFP (yes it's a myers-briggs personality type) because A. You have distinct principles; B. You probably consider yourself a hero of your own story in a way, like you actions hold to a greater purpose; C. You're good at translating, not languages but forms of expression. If someone says something extremely technical, INFPs are good at interpreting it in a way other people can understand. I do that, too. I wrote an essay about Vash's unsaid words, in the perspective of being a logical thinker actually able to explain ethics in Vash's position. The INFP part comes in on being able to explain what vash himself can't quite find the words for.

Now see, I always consider my characters so of as just people. Even if I want to them to do horrible acts, I always create some justification for them I can relate to. I never start off with the act and then follow up with the justification either. I actually try to process the thoughts through my character's head and think of what he'd do.

Nah. I was looking on some of the topics, seeing if there was any discussions I had anything meaningful to say on, and I happened across them. I didn't actually dig them up, erosion brought them to me.

A. Yes, I suppose I do.
B. I wouldn't have thought of that, but I suppose, on reflection, your right.
C. Hmmm.... Yeah, I do seem to be able to understand people pretty well. (Translating their form of thought into one I can understand)
And I have a question. By "echnical" did you mean ethical?
I don't write essays much, but I do think about stuff.

Yeah, that sounds like how I write. I tried to write a novel on several occasions, but I always ran into problems. First of all, I ended up skipping ahead too fast. I was 10 years ahead beore I finished the first page. That was a few years ago. More recently, I tried writing a novel on my computer, and my computer would always catch a virus or have a windows error or delete my work in some other way. My computer works well, but inconsistantly.

<-----------------king of typoes.

Ah, I see. Well, that's better than those people who don't even try to use english correctly. You know, the people who would have typed this same response like this:

ah, i c. bettr thn thos ppl wh dont ty t use englis corecty. u no, teh pepl who typ lik dis.

HA, HA! Oh, and don't bother decoding it, it says more or less the same as above.

Oh yeah, I forgot. I told you you'd get a prize for guessing what happened on my thread. Here, linky. It's a decent site I found with funny personality tests, as well as other jokes and stuff.

My brother threw a temper tantrum the other day because I beat him at Halo 2. Without using "unfair weapons" such as rocket launchers, sniper rifles, or shotguns. No wonder my Xbox is broken, he doesn that every time he loses a game, he throws the controllers and slams his fists on the ground and stuff like that. He loses a lot. Maybe we should get padded controllers.