Ok....




Correct! But neither is any one country in the world. Comparing USA to China is like comparing watermelons to cantalopes (I think thats what their called.. ) however comparing the US to the UK is like comparing a watermelon and a grapefruit.

They are all fruit.. But some are much bigger and different then the others. Population make ups are so different that it is unfair to compare them. Some of our corporations are richer then most african countries combined.. what does that tell you?




Yes, temporarily we can provide aid. And that is exactly what it should be used for. One blow can severly cripple your family, I know. I've been there. However there are many people that take advantage of this system, and it happens in every free enviroment. People that won't work and have children just so they get more money.. and my tax money goes to supporting them! I hate that thought.

And the old chinese proverb is wonderous too. But people (in America) nowadays are either A) wanna live the thug, white trash, and bum life Are to conservative and believe in their own superiority, and C) Liberals that think we should give alot more to group A) We have free "forced" education untill your 16, then you can decide if you want to stick with it or not. However, in my school alone 1/3 of my entire class is not expected to graduate. Why? Is it because welfare? No it is because of the decay of moral society and affirmative action.

Bottom line is that people are growing lazy and are looking for handouts. When the US stopped providing aid to Tawian their economy BOOMED. Why? Because it was either become a part of China, or work your boat off and become independent. Their ecomony and way of life was stagnant because they didn't have to do anything! The US was providing all the cash for it!



Err.. Shelter doesn't always mean like a tin shack or something. A homeless shelter generally is a fairly decent place with showers and bathrooms and of course cooking areas.



I would agree for you their. Medical care is incredibly expensive here.. But do you know why? Its because your have these NO CLASS citizens that will sue a doctor because they believe something went wrong! So a doctor needs 9+ years of training to find it safe to practice. But after nine years of school (and school bills) wouldn't you expect a little pay-up? And what about that emergency fund incase a person decides to sue you for reasons you can't stop? Who do I blame? The idiots that let court cases like that win. And that usually happens to be pro-liberal judges.

There is no winning.. I'm loosing faith. Maybe I should become a monk or something.. at least they won't tell me how GWB looks like a monkey.

It tells me that USA is a very rich and populated country.
But i already knew that


I second all that.
More childern for more money?
I'm speechless!


Well,that's another issue.A moral issue,that is needless to say,completly wrong.
It's on country to help those who need social help,and not to help those who abuse it.

In the Neds it's quite simple:They give you an offer to work.You refuse.You can get two more oportunitys and if you refuse them too,you lose your social help.The country doesn't want to stimaulate people to be lazy bums

Offcourse there are ''witty'' people who know how to bypass the system and get the social help.They are mostly just playing sick.But look at it this way:You get 800 Euro\per month with social help.That's enough for food,a small apartment,hygiene and some clothes.Something of a minimum that human being needs.But those who work,can buy themselves a lot more.They can make Bank loans,they can buy apartments,cars,go on vacations etc. So if you ask me,it's better to have a job than be unemployed


Sorry.I have no idea how do shelters in USA look like.O\I just imagined the ones in my country.

IMHO that's not an excuse.What if some average class man who works hard gets sick?Like he needs a heart surgery or such,and his ensurance doesn't cover that?
How come that here in the Neds health insurance isn't that high,and people are protected from everything?People can sue doctors here too.I didn't think that's the reason.

That depends on what your job is. For example, if you have three children, are considered unable to work due to disability, and have no qualifications, then you get more money than if you work. Because as well as having free accomodation supplied by the counsil, you also have child welfare allowance, disability benefit and tax exemptions/reductions, as well as food coupons.

If however you worked at minimum wage (quite often the only job these workshy school dropouts can get), you wouldn't be exempt from taxation and a lot of the other benefits would vanish.

I know of a person that doesn't work, does this, and goes on holiday to Cancun every year (in fact he goes scuba diving). I also don't know a person on benefit that doesn't own a car. I also don't think that bank loans are a particularly good gauge, considering being employed doesn't automatically make you elligible or able to provide collateral.


On another thought, it's impossible in practical terms to compare the US and the UK systems, for three very very strong reasons:

1) In the UK healthcare is free, paid by tax and National Insurence (social security) contributions. There is no requirement for insurence. There is no need to be employed to have healthcare.
2) The US and UK pension systems are totally different.
3) The US employment law is, in my opinion, awful compared to the UK. In the UK you can't just say "I quit" and leave; similarly your employer can't just fire you on a whim.

Well that depends from country to country,we'll all agree on that.

So it doesn't pay of to work at all if you have 3 kids in UK?
They can go to vacations?
Have (decent) cars?
Are there any real benefits of working in the UK?
For example,can you buy an apartment (or flat,how you call it ) with social help?I'm asking on monthly loan offcourse.

Well, you're caught in a trap. If you're smart enough to stay in school, you don't get to live the smart life because you're able to get a decent job according to the government, which means you don't get all this (except possibly the counsil housing). You also get to live in a nicer area, I suppose. Social help is available due to income assessment. If you're poor, you get help. Yet of course the 'poorest' are the people that drop out of school and don't work.

Of course the REALLY smart thing to do in the UK is to take a vocational course. Screw going to Uni - become a plumber. There is such a shortage of them currently (50,000 needed) that they get paid far more than most professionals.

I also have always been outraged by the people who have more & more children just to get welfare. Whatever they currently want to call it = it's welfare, paid for by the workers' taxes.

Not only are these people greedy and lazy, but they are quite often, the worst of parents. They hardly clothe their children, feed them cheap stuff all the time like cereal for dinner, hot dogs, macaroni n cheese, etc. while they are getting government money to provide for their children. I think this is the way they can afford exotic vacations. They skimp on the care of the children for their own desires.

And not only is the parenting bad - some of these poor kids only exist by eating the school-breakfast & school-lunch programs - but the whole system has really destroyed the morals of our country in the US. They do not give money to whole families, no - they reward the unwed mothers with a way of life to just keep having more and more illigitimate children and receive more and more benefits and tax-supplied government money. The breakdown of the family unit, the higher divorce rate, some of these trends are related to this stupid welfare program.

Well see.. If I'm not mistaken, if a person cannot afford the cost of the surgery (or whatnot.. treatment) they still get the solution, the cure. It isn't denied to them. However, they are mailed a bill.

To many people try to use the system, but thats just a flaw we have as humans

What do you mean by 'prefessionals''?
Highly educated people?
Does a plumber get a biger paycheck than, for example, a shrink?


But what if surgery is absolutly necessary and it costs a lot?
Insurance won't cover that?

That would depend on how experienced the shrink is, if the shrink is in private practice or in a hospital... a host of factors.

A plumber can easily earn 50,000 a year. A Pharmacist or Doctor in a hospital are looking at starting around the 25,000 mark (a pharmaicst in community around 33,000). An officer in the military, again around 25,000. A lawyer would need to do more school, and even then won't be approaching 50,000.

So in theory, yes, a plumber can earn more.

Wow,that's quite a lot. You're talking GB Pounds right?
Is there a diffrence betwen working hours per week?
Does a plumber work more than people with jobs you mentioned?

Probably not. Everyone is looking at around 37.5 hours a week.

And yes, that's in Pounds.

Seeing this is about politics and all, I was wondering what peoples' stance was on fringe politics. For example, I would cite the BNP (that is the British National Party, though most people say they are Nazis). They are a strongly right wing party that has constant allegations of race hate, and holocaust denial. In their manifesto they say that parents should be able to vote on if homosexuality should be taught as acceptable or not, and they want only one school meal - banning Halal and Kosher meals (they say it's barbaric).

Anyway, the reason I bring it up is that they're back in the press, as always, being rather publicity hungry. They won a few (nowhere NEAR the amount the main parties won) seats, and they're saying all kinds of stuff now. The student union is always pushing stuff through my door about how we should ban the BNP and condemn them etc. Now, I don't support the BNP, or their politics (personally I think their policies are stupid, and I don't really believe that they don't have serious national socialist leanings). I don't like the way that they campaign by commenting (in fairness, quite often truthfully) on passages in the Koran, and the history of Islam and saying how it's an evil religion. Basically I don't like 'em. But... I live in a democracy with free speech. So I also don't think that anyone has a right to try and stop them from saying their opinions - even the hipocrites that cite freedom of speech as their right to campaign to try and stop the BNP.

So really, does a democracy have the right to ban an alleged group of Nazi Hatemongers, if they haven't broken the law? Where does freedom of speech end, and the right to protect citizens against harmful distortions and rhetoric begin?

Incredibly well thought question.

Democracy has its problems, and a lot of them are unsolvable. That right there depends upon the people choice.

Its like burning a American flag.. I think you should be hung if you do that. However, its a form of protest.. so they say. Thats not protest, thats disreguarding the emblem of our nation.

But hey, I'm the evil man cause I want to take away your FREE money..

That is a good question about how should a democracy deal with a hate-monger group who are not actually breaking the law. Sometimes they must be monitored or stopped from having a public meeting due to the violence it will incur.

Recently there was a Nazi/KKK type skinhead group who planned a rally and march right through the main street of a well known depressed black district that recently has been getting tax money spent there to improve things.
The police went around and distributed flyers and told all the residents of that district not to use that street or go near it during the hours of the skinhead march. So that they had their rally but it was quite lame because they really staged it there to stir up trouble and there was none.

Its not that complex. You have complete freedom to do anything but crunch on someone else's freedom, everyone has the right not to be victim of any sort of assualt including verbal. So a NAZI party can say all these things in their own quarter (and they also have a right to form a party) but when they purposely attempt to intimidate other people as in Ibis's example is indeed breaking the law though it is not a law commonly inforced in democracies.

Germany has a 5% threshold in their MMP elections because they didn't want their own NAZI party being represented.



No offense but I find this quite disturbing. Nationalism has connotations of hate, prejudgice and ignorance for me, and was the most common tool used by political leaders to enforce oppression. What else does a national emblem do? Pay tribute to the people who gave their lives for their nation? I don't think so! You might think about the victories but not the blood which was shed in often oppressive wars.

Hehe... well I also find this a bit... maybe not disturbing, but a bad case of overreacting.

I know Americans are very patriotic and all that, but a flag is just a piece of cloth. I know, I know... It's the symbol of your country, but it's still a piece of cloth. The real country - and what you should be saluting - is its citizens and their achievements and the people who built/is building the country.

'Hanging' is acceptable (in my book) for deliberately killing innocent people and abusing children, not for burning cloth.

If someone burns your flag, simply turn the other cheek and raise a new flag. Wars have probably been started by people getting angry about flagburning. If noone got angry with flagburning, there would be no more flagburning, simple as that.

As far as flag burning goes... I get more upset by it when its done by a fellow American. America is by far and large of land of many differing opinions, none of them are anymore valid than another. When I see an American burning the flag because they don't believe in one or more policies I tend to think very little of that person's side of the fight. To me they are the ones willing to trash an icon of their own country for their single minded purpose.

As far as seeing others in other countries burning our flag... It doesn't upset me at all. Most of those that are doing it are doing it for no other reason than they think it will upset us. They generally have no idea whatsoever about this country and how it operates beyond their own narrow view of things they have been manipulated to believe.


On another topic though, which I want to throw out there before I head off to work.

Todays main headlines appear to be that of the NSA keeping a database of phone records on millions of telephone calls. Mind you these are not actual recorded conversations, but just which number called which.

I want to hear what others have to think about this? I for one seem to be in the far minority in thinking that its perfectly fine. I mean it is the NSA... It is doing exactly what it was established to do. I hear alot about its an invasion of privacy, but I would like to know exactly how it is? I also would like to hear what you feel the governments other options are then for keeping us safe from terrorist attacks if we take away any power for them to monitor for terrorsists BEFORE they attack.

Burning Flags?
American Flags?
Well, I saw a lot of that back in 1999, when we were under bombardment from USA.
To be completly honest, back then i hated USA, and everything related to USA. Especialy their pilots. My father went fighting on Kosovo against Albanians, and i wasn't afraid than he will die from an Albanian bullet, I was afraid he will get wiped with an USA missile. Those were tough times back then when Americans were ''saving'' us from Slobodan Milošević. Hmph. ''Mercyful Angel'' was a code name of the operation. I don't know what's so mercyful in destroying two blocks of civilian buildings and call it ''collateral damage''.
This I can forgive, but i can never forget. Never
Sorry, I'm rambling


Now, I don't make such a big deal when it comes to burning flags or something similar. There will be always such idiots who will burn their own country flag, and it's best not to pay much attention to it. I also don't think it should be punishable by law IF the goverment is informed in suuh an act, and demonstrations are alowed. Here in the Neds I hear that you can organise a protest, inform the goverment who will inform citizens that the protest will make place in x place, in x time, and that the traffic will be blocked. I can't confirm this, my friend told me, and if he lied to me, then I'm lying to you now.

Nationalism is not bad. Please disreguard the idea that it is.

Communism is not bad either. Neither is a dictatorship. What we make of it creates if it is to be considered bad.

The flag is much more then a peice of clothe. Each bit of the flag means something.





That sums it up. The flag is a representation of our values, what we as a country are supposed to stand for. John Proctor said it well in Arthur Miller's, The Crucible.



His name was his identity, his flag. Without out it he wouldn't be John Proctor. It was his facet to the people.

You might believe I go far with it, but only in thought do any emotions play the meaning of the flag. So the "clothe" is the visual representation of those glorius ideals. Burning them is to burn the very doctrine you rest on!

As a future member of the United States Military, it will be my sworn duty to uphold and protect that flag and what it stands for. Now, as a Staff Seargent in NC933 AFJROTC my duty is to attend to support those that now uphold it.

Forgive my passionate arguement, but how comes we are in the wrong when a few Mexican protesters recently burnt an American flag, and then in retribution, members of a very pro-american group burnt a Mexican flag, and now the latter faces court orders?

Don't you mean Patriotism?

I don't know who exactly said this, but someone with political University should recognise this sentence. He was the greatest enemy of communism.
''In theory, Communism is the best social system, but it's realisation leeds to doom''
Very well said.

I have political university But I don't recognise the qoute. Communism is bad because the good type of communist theory says it is the stage past capitialism after the world has turned into a "McWorld" state, but we are still moving into a McWorld state and infact when Communism arose it hadn't really begun. Anyone who has studied Marxist theory knows that it can't work until then, communist leaders just used it as a new form of control via a new type of nationalism. A couple of Communist leaders tried to make it into something similiar to Communism which they believed would work but most just believed in the fame/power. Dictatorship is bad, most cases led to tyranny but even without the tyranny it is still an oppressive form of control, democracy is also bad, it is an oppressive form of control but most cases do not led to tyranny.

A flag is a bit of clothe without nationalism or patriotism. If someone comments "I think you should be hung if you burn a piece of clothe", this is extreme yes? But aside from some psychotic materialists no one would say that. But then you add nationalism or patriotism and then somebody DOES say that, if it is "What we make of it creates if it is to be considered bad." then patriotism is made extreme.
Patriotism is supposed to be pride in the good things, it is supposed to be rational and there is nothing wrong with it.
Nationalism is pride in anything, good, bad or neutral. It is irrational, taking pride with bad things because they are associated with the nation; it is seeing only the good and ignoring the bad, it is treating symbols as sacred rather than acknowledging good things do not die with their symbols.
Now really, if you use the flag as an excuse to act irrationally then your not standing by the ideals. The flag was founded on creating of a new free thinking nation not because it was trapped in loyalities to the British flag.

Nationalism, I must agree, is very bad. Patriotism isn't so positive either, as it segregates people by borders, it makes people feel better about doing harm to other people if they're not part of their country. If you've ever read "Out of the Silent Planet" by C.S. Lewis this idea of patriotism or nationalism is exposed. The Cunniung Lewis is a master of symbolism, and though I'm less fond of christian symbolism that was attached to the later books in his series after "Out of the Silent Planet" he wrote the original book right around the beginning of World War 2, and through symbolism exposes his criticisms of nationalism and patriotism.

An ideologue named Weston, in the book, wants to colonize the already inhabited planet of mars for humans, to steal the resources from the inhabitants to give the humans more room if anything where to ever happen to the Earth, to stretch humanity all across every inhabitable planet in the universe. He get's in argument, but because he doesn't understand the martian language, he uses the protagonist of the book to translate the debate between him and the martian rulership.

He stated, every well, all the best points of any nationalist or patriotic movement, that they must stride to do what's best for them, that they must help themselves out first. That his loyalties lie on the humans before anyone else, that he believes in preserving their culture above anyone elses.

This was translated by the protagonist, and likewise all the eloquent argument and strong, intimidating,k convicing way he could present his opinion was lost, said in the amrtian language, which has no word for war or violence, and it exposed the idea of what people are trying to accomplish on Earth in very simplified, general terms, that some people think they have the right to succeed over other people, that they think they should preserve what's locked inside by invisible borders over what isn't. It was best identified by this:

the rulership of mars argued, "But what signifies your side, if he no longer lives on earth, and in a few million years may look completely different.

It made me wonder, what signifies and American to be different than any other people? That fact that he's located between two invisible borders?

Now, someone needs to define patriotism for me because as far as I can tell what it honestly means is that if someonje calls themselves american you would defend them over someone who called themselves something else. That's all I can tell on the meaning of the word, for me patriotism is a stupid word, I have loyalty to certain things, yes, but certainly not to one chunk of land over another, or one group of people over another.

Please forgive the seemingly endless line of quotes, but this is a good thread right here. Here we go:

Don't ban the fools, just ignore them, but not let them slip out of your mind - if so, they will try to get more support and become a threat to democracy. As far as it goes I will always take democracy, with all its flaws, before totalitarian regime.


Good call. Don't give hatemongers the reason to start trouble and there will be none


A good wiew, and it describes my own thoughts well. However... if an american (or, for that matter, any country's) citisen burns his own national flag one has to wonder: why does that kind of thing happen - is it because too much freedom or too little freedom ? And what if someone turns (like Hippies back in 60's)flag into clothes ? Is that similar disrespect ? Personally, I believe there should be some kind of penalty for flag burning, on a worldwide level, because it is a sort of treason to disrespect your own country like that... but public shootings and hangings are just a bit much.


They're burning American flags in Iran, Palestine, Serbia... not because they don't know (or want to know) how USA operates; heck, not even to upset anyone. They do it because of hate - plain and simple. USA has to make its foreign policies more pacific and just take away reasons for that hatret from the nationalists worldwide - that way, a road toward understanding can be paved.


One of my brothers went to fight Albanian terrorists back in '99. right on the Kosovo border. Night before his unit was shipped for that damn place their barracs in Nish (my hometown) were bombed, but fortunately no one was killed. After that episode at the very beginning of 'intervention', we have endured several tough months and in the end no one on both sides acomplished nothing. Milosevic just handed out Kosovo (just like anyone with 1/2 brain KNEW he'd do) and we all now have a bitter taste in our mouths. Back in WW2 USA and Serbia were allies and we fought against Axis together, but today many older folk here just have a blind hatret toward anything american, save the Coke But at least I can see all the shades of gray perfectly. Do I hate America, in general ? No. I hate certain america politicians and military leaders, but I can't hate all Americans - that would mean I'd have to hate Stargazey, Magnus, Zarrexaij... and about 250M people who had done nothing to me or my country... and that's just silly.
However, this is no rambling. And I can't and won't forget.



Please, DO NOT confuse Nationalism with Patriotism. While Patriotism focuses on glorification and love of one's country by focusing on its good sides, Nationalism does that by demeaning ALL OTHER nations and countries. Nationalism is bad, trust me.
Communism ? It is a good system - in theory. In reality, corruption eats away everything and ultimately creates social injustice. I know this because I still live in such country IMHO, the best social systems are ones that exist in Norway and Sweden - and that is moderate social-democratic system (center).

Just for the record, regarding my last post regarding burning flags, I'd just like to mention that flag burning is illegal in Norway too, and I do think flag burning is unnecessary, but I don't think it's reason enough for death sentence...

Well, as I said I HATED (past tense) Americans. I don't need to tell you how much were people swearing at America back then. And i was a 14 year old influenced by this. Still, as I said, I can forgive, but not forget. You understand right?

Yes, that's why I said ''Don't you mean Patriotism?''

True.

System in our country isn't communism. It was a long ago (in Tito's time), but now it's just capitalism with a lot of corruption. Unfortunatly

You know, I belive that our country could actualy get out of it's current state if the corruption is to be stoped (slim chance of that happening soon ).

Anyway, tell me, I heard that there was some major disaster in our country recently. I heard Tadić resigned, and Karić was kicked out of the country. What's going on?

I wasn't being completely serious when I said someone should hang for burning a flag. However, I was rather ruffed up.

My question is...

If nationalism is so bad, what other choice do we have? The world is a long way off from a global classification. And I would be hard pressed to think that everyone would unite unless there was a external foe.

Please tell me a single time where theres been utter peace in even the most united of countries. (Def not the U.S.)

So, you're advocating that we all have to stick to our countrys and diminish other? OK then. You propose that I should say:
''I love Serbia! I disrespect Americans!'' HyPN0 doesn't respect Clannler, because he is not a Serb! But HyPN0 loves milanius because he IS a Serb!

Is this your opinion? That I should stick to my nation and diminish your? No my friend, that's where you're wrong. You should love your country, be proud of it, but respect other country people. And that's patriotism

Nationalism leads to doom. I really didn't want to mention this about my country, but since milanius mentioned it.... Nationalism made a war betwen Serbians, Croatians, and Bosnians. Many people died, and even today, the situation among these people isn't all that good. Is that good? No, it's not good.

I would just like you to know that I don't really mean the things I said about USA in this post. I was just making an example.

Former Yugoslavia. When Tito was president, everybody was living together, and a Croatian and a Serb could be found it the caffe driking beer together. That utter peace lasted until Tito died and then everything had gone to hell.

Well there has been utter peace in Norway as well since WWII, at least per definition. But since we're members of NATO and send military equipment and personell to most conflicts in the world I guess that could qualify as .. uhm.. not peace? Tough question...

Strange as this may sound, when I was a taxi driver I experienced first hand every day how spoiled and arrogant/ignorant young people in my town have become. I can't really explain it, but sometimes I wished that our country would experience a war or some other form of crisis, so that people would once again start to care for each other and appreciate the real values of life, and not act like they do today. A crisis situation changes people. I remember after Sept. 11th I watched a news story from New York, where they said something like 'even the cab drivers are being nice to people now', which was apparently quite a sensation, since the New York cab drivers (and inhabitants in general) are known to be some of the most arrogant and rude people in the world (according to the New Yorkers themselves).

So maybe we all need a crisis from time to time to start appreciating the true values in life.

1. I understand, buddie
2. I can't possibly start to explain to someone who's outsider the meaning of 'samoupravljanje' *bangs his head really hard against wall* I'll only say that the system we had up untill the early 1990's was completely wrong, unefficient, susceptible to corruption(meh) and self-destructive.
3. Slim chance, yeah.
4. No, you misheard it. Ever since that " 063 Mobtel" financial scandal and Karic's fleeing from the land to Russia there is a small, private war between the goverment and Karic family - latest thing was the closing of their "BK" television station, which is just wrong, even if they are mobsters (and they are just that). However, the resignation you must've heard about wasn't Tadic's - Boris Tadic is still the president of Serbia, but vice-president of the goverment, Miroljub Labus, has resigned from his post, because of the whole sham with Mladic he also resigned from his function in G17+Party (he was the president of it) and now that little bugger Dinkic is doing his job... but hey, it's all in the day's work. You just forgot what kind of madhouse you left from \


p.s.: Hypno, even before Josip Broz Tito had died there was overwhelming feeling all across SFRJ that the peace we had was fragile, tainted and false... nationalist movements that began during the 70's (MASPOK in Croatia, Iredenta in Kosovo) were all aimed to destroy the 'uncomfortable' union that ALL nations in Federation, more or less, despised. Epilogue, as always, is coming decades later: Montenegro will have its referendum about their future state on May 21st and if it succeeds they will proclaim independence and leave. Personaly, I'd prefer it that way - Serbia will become a nation with a flag, anthem and that awesome two-headed white eagle will once again be our banner (see, there's that ol' patriotism )

It's good to experience financial crisis, but afterwar crisis is not so good. After war, moral values were lost, and criminals became valued as idols. Arkan being the best example. Just read a bit through his history and dare to call him a hero But Serbs valued him as someone very important and good. He was a Nationalist, although he claimed he was a patriot
Just be careful what you wish



I'll join you



Yeah.... I did BTW what's the plan for entering EU? Anytime soon? (by soon I mean in next 50 years )

Yeah well, my mother, father and all my relatives claim they didn't feel that way. Heck, my old man is a Serb, and my mom is a Croatian. I was born in Karlovac, Croatia but I emigrated in Serbia during war and I feel more like a Serb than a Croatian. Actauly I don't have anything with Croatia exept herritage.

So, I don't exacly know more than my old folks told me. Was it false? Dunno

Well I've experienced financial crisis myself (personally I mean, meaning eating spagetthi and ketchup evey day for weeks, and getting grey hairs (really!) for not having money for bills), and I can't recommend that to even enemies.

But I meant the crisis of war, not afterwar. Meaning when you experience daily alarms that tells you that you have to run to a shelter, that the school you went to yesterday was bombed last night and is no more, that the neighborhood where your grandmother lives is erased from the surface of the earth, that the hospital is bombed to pieces, when you wake up by marching feet outside your window and know that your jewish best friend neighbor is going to be taken away and be killed.

... or when someone crashes modern jet airplanes into the tallest buildings in your city, killing thousands.


This is the kind of crisis I mean, and which I think bring out the best in people when they try to cope with it together.

Of course I have not experienced this first hand, only heard it from my parents, while you have probably experienced much of this first hand and would have a better understanding.

By crisis I also mean things like flooding, earthquakes, meteor showers etc...

Nationalism tears people apart from each other, countries shouldn't be squabbling over differences, people in different countries shouldn't be squabbling over differences, it just isn't practical to hold yoursel loyal to people just because they're in the same border. it doesn't mean they're good people. I mean, I've talked to a lot of travellers who have gone everywhere, and they all agree as long as you follow the "when in rome" rule 90-99% of people are good, nice people who would help you out in need.

Resources are being with-held from people to instill hopelessness and keep them divided and poor GLOBALLY. Every human being is connected in this new struggle, whether its Americans being kept ignorant or South Americans being pressed against the wall by deathsquads, we have the same enemy. That's what bites me about both nationalism and patriotism, because no matter what you say about patriotism it's still exclusion, it's still holding one group of people over all the rest as far as your loyalties go, for absolutely no reason other than because they're within some invisible borders.

So yeah, flag-burning is just as fine and flag waving, because, as you said Channler, the flag is all about symbolism, and flag-burning is symbolic in it's own way. Why can't I get wryled up and say, "Flag waivers should be put in prison, because they're symbolizing putting one country over everyone else!?" Flag burning is the same story, people feel a certain way and act symbolically, saying the country is the source of all their problems. That, of course, isn't true, it's the same as saying I'm more loyal to someone from my country than someone who isn't, just as a standard.

Did I read this right? You WANT to be in a war?
You want to see dead civilians? Be under bombardment? See your country economy and moral crush?

Wow, this was VERY stunning for me to read. I still can't belive you said that....
Wars are *censored word* where real people die, and trust me, you would rather eat spagetthi than die.

As goes for fear and horror: I didn't have it. There were poeple who were hiding in their basements, but i'm not one of them. You know what I was doing? I was drinking beer with my friends in front of the local store. Some of my friends were doing.... creative (i.e. illegal) jobs, so we always had money for beer, and a lot of other goodies. Good 'ol ''Jelen'' beer When we saw US airplanes in the sky we were just yelling ''Over here cunts! Over here!'' My thoughts back then were ''If I have to die from this cowards, I will die with a smile on my face and a beer in my hand, instead of dieing in a basement scared like a rat.'' I'm sure you can't understand this, but hey Serbs are a crazy nation

It was diffrent on Kosovo - a part of my country (that isn't my country anymore, Albanians got what they intended).... The real trouble was there. People fleeing from their homes, a lot of people dying etc.

Wars wouldn't unite your country, actualy there is a good chance it would devide it. Everybody just looking to preserve it's own ''bottom'' not caring about others.

Financial crisis is a good thing to live out because you will learn to apriciate what you're taking for granted. And if it comes again you will be prepared. And you will certanly not mock the one who is poor.

Actualy, I would like to see your arguments how is war crisis good.
Please, I don't see one single benefit

HA ! Dead on target. We were also cheering our AA guns every night, despite the fact they couldn't hit anything (low range). Serbs are indeed a nation of insane, self-destruructive madmen berserkers... the harder you hit us in the head, the less we respect you, even when we're outnumbered 800:1


"Riba u loncu ne veruje ribi u tiganju."
("A fish in the pot can't believe the fish in the frying pen")
This means, of course, that one has to truly expirience social and economical suffering on one's own skin in order to understand that nothing good comes out of a crisis. In the ent, you only have a lose-lose situation, and that's, like Mike Madsen said it best in "Kill Bill vol.2", 'all there is to it'.

p.s.: Hypno, Serbia in EU... in 50 years ?! ahahahaaa... oh, wait... you're serious ?!!? Ha ha ha...

It is a good thing that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it.

- Robert E Lee to James Longstreet, Battle of Fredricksberg, 1862

Ok thanks for the clarifications, guys. Of course I don't really want a war in my neighborhood, and for those of you that have experienced it first hand I'll definitely respect your views on it. Financial crisis is probably a piece of cake compared to living in a warzone, but it's bad enough if you don't have any other worries (I guess war/hunger goes hand in hand anyway).

But what I mean is that all humans seem to tend to crave for something to complain about. If they live in perfect harmony they'll find something to complain about, trust me. This is what amazes and disturbs me. If they suddenly find themselves in a world of chaos they'll probably wake up and start thinking, but it's a shame that this is apparently the only way to wake them up.

The example I mentioned is probably too old. 50 years ago when people were in a crisis they tended to try and look out for each other, but in modern times they probably do their best to take care of themselves and care little about others(?). I guess this depend on the people...

In Norway we have lots of Serbian refugees (sorry I don't really know the difference between the two types of Serbs, but I think we have them both), and they all act very 'civilized' and don't do much crime like many other refugees. I've worked with many serbs, and they were all really great guys, people to trust and respect. This indicates that your people have experienced something in your lifetime that you will probably never forget and that have changed you into individuals of reflection, and you are probably people to be trusted in a crisis situation whether you'd like to admit it or not...

(And by the way, I'm a little amused every time I hear an American who says that they've experienced war for so long, while actually they haven't had a war in their backyard since the civil war (not counting 10-11). Sending people off to fight in distant lands is not the same as having a war in your backyard, where foreign soldiers burn your house and kill your children. I'm sorry if this offends Americans, but it's true.)

But what I really meant with my view is that if everyone had gone through what you (serbs) have, and I mean EVERYONE, the world would most likely be a better place to live in, since we'd all have learned the value of staying alive and how to do it, instead of finding a good excuse to ask our rich parents for more allowance...

You know what though. Us Humans just plain ol' HAVE to fight. It's our last instinct (sides that little attactation...to the ladies... (or men for the gals)) making a cruel comeback. We'll keep on fighting forever, it's the instinct that we'll never evolve out of. Imagine it, Aliens come to our galaxy once we travel space, we'd probably take a few years off the wars to kill 'em and then go back to slaughtering each other.

I think that Canada has the best Social life style, we have everything: pension, multiculturalism...etc... the only bad thing thats happened for a while in Canada is the Libreals and thier scams... Do you all remeber that thing in Rowanda where those Hidi's and Tuties (w/e) started killing each other? Then the U.N. goes in and soon as the U.N. leaves they go back at killing each other. The U.S. should've just bombed the hell out of 'em (a few dozen cruise missles in the middle of the battlefield might change thier minds about fighting!) Sorry if that is insulting to anyone.

Our language barriers are kinda distorting our posts here..

I respect all countires (save a few with notable reasons). More so I respect the people in the counties. However, look at it on a family scale.. I would sooner risk my life to save a family member then risk it for a stranger.

One thing that we americans are lacking (for better) is a home war.) The war of 1812 was argueably the last war that was fought on American soil. So we have grown up rather, secluded, secure in our own ways. And its done pretty good for us. It doesn't stop the fact though that people want to kill us because were Western, and so should we each alone try to confront this threat? Nay, we unite... --->nationlism.

The day Doomed goes over to Iraq and asks a jihadi for world peace is the day I lay down my pride full flag and join the world in singing some hippy dipity song..

Funny thing, almost every time me a a frind of mine are out on town, we start observing, and say to each other "no wonder no aliens will make contact yet. Look how we behave!" All the drunk people dancing silly, people jumping up and down for no reason at all, people jumping on one foot over to the bar to get a another beer, people drinking, laughing, crying then puking.. (I'm not sure how it is where you guys live, but it's like that here).

I'm sure if any aliens were advanced enough to even travel here, they would have no problems killing us should they want to, and we would never even know what hit us (some legends say this has already happened once thousands of years ago).

There's the source of the very problem, channler, we are all fighting different enemies. My enemy is any human that takes advantage of another human, of an injustice. As Che said, anyone who trembles indignation at every injustice is a brother of mine. Your enemy is anyone who opposes the United Staes, or at least that is nationalism. With us or against us is nationalism. Patriotism has very little difference the way it's treated by Americans today. I find nationalism, masked as patriotism, a plague in the US. It's why flag waving gets me as wryled up as flag burning to you, because to me the people who are waving the flaga re standing against the very principles the flag was founded on, distorting it for their own gains.

So yes, to be honest it is my plan eventually to come to a jihadist the same way I would any other human being. If they have a holy war against me, they are fighting the wrong enemy the same way the United States army is. I don't believe world peace is possible, but I believe t's something that should be sought anyway.

Question: Would you rather risk your life for say, a US criminal, or for a Canadian Police officer?
The point of this question is: Would you rather sacrifice yourself for a scumbag that is of your nation, or for somebody who was fighting injustice his\her whole life, but isn't of your nation?

And I'm curius what countries you disrespect? And can you tell me the notable reasons?

Who wants to kill you because you're western?

To gather up and defend your country from the invaders? I call that patriotism, but our languages may have diffrent definitions of it.

I know this question was directed at Channler, but I couldn't help stating: Heck, the Canadians seem bent on protecting our criminals from our law enforcement officials.

A lot of people want to kill us (Weterners) because we're "Western", those include: . . . okay I'm stuck there, I can only speculate that many people would prefer us dead, not because we're wetern, but because of our policies.

I'd also like to inquire that besides our geographical location, what makes us Western? A geographical location seems like a strange reason to hate my guts.

Of course we are fighting different enemies. Why did the Popes call for crusades into the Holy Land? Largely to try to quell the fighting that had been plauging Europe. To have a common enemy has only been in practice for so long.

Call me incredibly short sighted, or impervious to what the future might bring, but I have no faith that there will ever be peace, nor the end of nationalism, or anything along their lines.

Why? Someone already related to it earlier. Man is made to fight, its ingrained in our head, our bodies. As sad as that may be... I'll continue later.

Sorry to change the subject so abruptly but:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4774639.stm

Well, I just got a "little" ticked off after reading this article.

First: We're deploying the national guard to throw desperate people back across the border? The guards aren't protecting us from anything, except orange-pickers willing to work for $2 dollars an hour and a bag of oranges to take home at the end of the day.

Second: Honest immigrants? I think Mr. President means honest Mexican immigrants, or anyone else who doesn't look like him. What about those honest strictly European immigrants?

About jobs Americans won't do, like picking oranges. All the "dishonest" immigrants allready have those jobs, is he going to replace them with "honest immigrants"?

New ID cards for legal foreign workers? I suppose soon all those "evil Mexicans" who're are busy stealing our jobs will have to wear a patch emblazoned with the Mexican flags at all times for easy sorting.

What law did they break? I know theres some law that probably restricts their access into the US, but what is the point of that law?

I suppose its meant to keep "Hispanics" from becoming the majority in America.

Learn English! Are we culturally intolerant now as well. As far as I know English is only the de facto language of the United States and not an official requirement (yes I know it would probably be hard to get around in America without knowing English.) It isn't our common identity as Americans, our common identity as Americans is a respect for all people of the world, their cultures included, and tolerance for newcomers who seek better lives in our nation. If you want to become an American, should it be mandatory you know English? At the current growth rate, the largest group of people in the United States near the end of my lifetime would probably be people who're considered "Hispanic". This, however, is only an assumption.

Again I state world peace isn't possible, but it should be sought after. I'm not saying man is meant to fight, because men all over the world exist without violence. Fighting is a cultural thing. Hunting a survival thing, but nothing about man requires him to fight. Human beings are forced into war becase of the society they live in, where borders alienate people from each other.

Actually I will disagree here. I don't see man in general as wired to fight. Yes we evolved from a predatory state and emotions do often lead to violent actions, but we are also social species of small groups. We can abide and even need the company of others around us. The vast majority of violence and war of man against man is really attributed to a small number of men throughout history. The problem is that we are wired to follow the dominant member of the group or leader. The vast majority of people do not know or want to think for themselves. They will follow orders and ways of thinking based on what their leader/religion/authority figure tells them to think or do. In all the wars that were fought in the middle ages do you think that the majority of soldiers wanted to be on those battlefields? Most were worried that they may not be home in time to bring in the years crops. They were only there because someone somewhere ordered them into battle either directly or through manipulating them into believing it was the right thing to do.




I would just like to say Doomed that I disagree with alot of your views on the world, but I must say I really admire your Passion for your viewpoints. I sincerely do hope that you keep such passion for your ideals as you grow older. It is so easy to grow jaded the more time you spend on this planet and realize that very little changes throughout time. People will probably be making the same mistakes in 100 years as they are today, which were the same mistakes being made 100 or 1000 years ago.


To Milanius and Hypno -
I have to say reading your posts, I had no idea whatsoever that we were so ill-thought of at the time. I must admit that America has a bad habit of jumping into foreign affairs without thinking things through first. Personally, I don't remember much about the whole conflict that took place in your country so pardon my ignorance on the subject. The news coverage of it here was very poor. I have to ask though... looking back, what would have happened realistically if America had not intervened?



Actually learning English is a requirement for immigrants when they apply for citizenship. My problem isn't that the illegal immigrants are here, nor do I feel they are taking away jobs from Americans. I completely agree that most Americans certainly wouldn't want most of the jobs that they perform.

My problems is that they are here illegally. There is a proper way to apply for and become a citizen of this country. We want the people that live in this country to have a certain respect for the laws which govern us. Living here illegally is already showing a disrespect for our laws. I certainly wouldn't expect to go to another country and not abide by their laws while I am there. I applaud those that are willing to come here and make a better life for themselves, but to do so by undercutting those that are citizens is not the right way to go about it. By undercutting I mean of course that they are feeding on the prosperity here without actually helping contribute to the whole. The vast majority of them do not pay taxes, yet still have children that attend our publicly paid schools and/or use other social programs. I am all in favor of granting those that are already here citizenship, if and only if, they also are willing to show a little bit of respect for the laws of the land in which they are choosing to live in and follow the procedure for becoming citizens. To not do so is a big slap in the face to every immigrant from around the world who struggled hard to earn their citizenship here.

Have you ever pushed someone in anger?

You are NOT human if you do not experience anger, fear, hate, love, greed, charity, etc. etc. etc.

Perhaps Yoda said it best..






Neela you are horribly wrong with this. You must not live near/in a ghetto, or even around a bunch of punks that think they are something else.

How many people called for war against their own brethren in the Civil War? Or how about when people learned the atrocities of Hitler and his ghoonies? Or even possibly how about when we watched on TV as two planes crashed into the World Trade Centers, how many people called for war against the terrorists? But these were also good people, very social people. People that loved their family, people that gave to charity. Some that went to church, others that despised it.

Believe it or not, but we were united in our anger, perhaps even our hatred.

But Channler, it was not forced, it was not natural instinct, it was cultural conditioning, social distinction. Any man can get angry enough to be violent, and violence comes off hate, but violence is different from WAR. Conflict is not the same thing as war.

If this weren't true, then how come depending on your culture you can become angry for compeltely different reasons? How come when faced with murder, some cultures force the murderer to replaced their victim's place in society and work for the victim's family their entire life or face exile? Some cultures have the capacity not to be violent, in general. Others think war is unthinkable. To certain cultures, and smaller, less "civilized" societies, the idea of world peace is as natural as making love. Hate brings more hate, and violence brings more violence, but love also brings more love, and peace brings more peace.

So, sure, we're locked in a globally war-torn world where the numbers of people that want to bring more war greatly out number those that realize the error of society, but it doesn't mean that violence is natural. Culture, however, is natural, and violence is very much ingrained in the global culture.

On the whole immigrant thing...

This is long overdue. (We've been debating this in school for awhile)

To address the whole 'mexican vs european immigrant' thing, we can't exactly send the border patrol to guard us from next-door Germany. Especially since it isn't next door.

I agree totally with allowing (current) illegal immigrants to become citizens; finally, they'll pay taxes to pay for their education that they would otherwise get for free. You know we have scholarsshipsfor illegal immigrants. It's rewarding them for being criminals. When they become citizens, then they are on par with everyone else; they pay the same taxes for the same benefits.

It kind of angers me that the children of illegal immigrants go to the same school as me, when their parents don't put a dime towards it.

That's the whole thing in a nutshell really, TAXES. It is understandable that people in poorer or repressive countries want to come to the US, but to do so illegally means that they do not pay taxes. And like Dantrag said, they reap alot of benefits from it that they do not contribute taxes towards.

I also used to work with Puerto Rican people who worked 6 months on their green card, which gave them about 3 times the money they'd have made in Puerto Rico and then they return there that much richer. Not only that but they give their green card to their cousin or friend and he uses it for 6 months and does the same thing all over again. Like some racket they are playing on our country and sending and spending all the money they make back in the home country.

The language problem is something else entirely. Polish people can learn perfect English within one or two generations of being here. It is not that Hispanics are more stupid. NO, they are more proud. And they mostly claim that they colonized the states first and so why should they learn English. I wasn't surprised at all when they tried to make Spanish the official first language of Miami.

But like Neela said, you wouldn't go to a foriegn country and purposely break their laws. Why be so arrogant about your heritage? If its that primary in your life, you should have stayed where your allegience lies.